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Over the Edge . . . without a Kurzweil!
  #1  
Old 03-22-2005, 03:10 AM
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Default Over the Edge . . . without a Kurzweil!

Well, here it is. I used my S90 for every patch except for the unaccompanied lead, which I played with my Ion. Thanks to Enigma for the drum track. Some things were not possible to recreate, most notably the "Hey!" sound effects and the percussion during the brass + pizz section. I recorded this in parts; I'm in the process of making a video where you'll be able to hear and see the patch changing in realtime. I'm still trying to improve this, so if anyone has any comments on the playing, sound programming, etc., please let me know.

Here are a few links (in case one runs out):

http://s17.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3...92P85XQF5MFK80

http://s42.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...V1B4G99E7P4QDR

http://s15.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3...129EG3E1AZ105E
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  #2  
Old 03-22-2005, 02:08 PM
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I don't have time for a huge lengthy reply right now, but when I get back from work, I'll give you a sound by sound review and explain some things that would make this much more accurate for you ;)

In short right now - Great job!
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  #3  
Old 03-23-2005, 02:47 AM
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Okay - I'm going to go over the entire song with you right now. Most of the things that I noticed that weren't quite right were mostly programming things - lack of sound changes, etc..
What transcription did you use? I did a transcription a while ago and it sounds like you were using the one I did but I also included where the sounds changed. If you don't have it though, but have your own it'd be neat to compare ;)

As for the sounds:

Namm Intro: Good.
*BTW: If you don't have my transcription, I have it marked where all the sound changes are and what the sounds actually are as well - perhaps I'll make a link for you to download*
Okay, the Intro:

NAMM INTRO:
There's a couple things about the playing but that'll come with practice. The sound itself is suprisingly close. I was mostly impressed with the accuracy of the LH bass sound though. Good job!
The thing about the first sound - the Bell sound in the RH is too prominent. It's not even that it's loud so much is that it rings too long. It's TOO audible. And it sounds like it should be thinner - more like a chime and less of a bell. Otherwise 2 things:
On the C# on the LH, there needs to be a cymbal crash. On the lower C on the LH there needs to be a long gong sound.
Overall sound - GOOD. The horns should have a saw waveform over them as well though to make it a little grittier. It's too smooth in the recording.

F/Eb W-HITS:
This sound comes in at the Fmaj part on the right hand with the LH doing Hits on Eb. It's at :38 or so. This sound is a bit different than the NAMM intro sound. This one has more of a synth attack sound than the horns used in the first sound. The bell has more Pingy sound and the release is very faint on this one. LH stays the same.

TOP W-BASS MOVE:
This one is WAY more synth than brass. You need more Saws, fatty saws. Real fat. Bigger than Oprah. Also, the attack sound on this one *the bell sound* is way thinner this time. It's actually a Xylophone sound, very percussive. The LH is the same bass but with an electric guitar sound. This needs to come WAY out in your mix. Not nearly loud enough. Okay, let me rephrase - I don't think it's not so much loud, as it is prominent. Needs to stand out a bit more. Maybe try a little more distortion?

E MINOR THEME:

LH: Same Eguitar and Bass as TOP W-BASS MOVE.
RH: This has a very faint choir, and is 99% brass sounds. Part synth and part sampled brass, but still brassy regardless. Oh, and there's strings under there too WITH the choir sound. They kinda fade in a little, but you'll get it. The choir you have there is good, but there need to be strings in there that are 1 octave higher than the choir. That'd fix that sound. Oh, and you're playing in the wrong octave when you play the "D C B A, B A" part, JUST before the switch.

JAZZ BAND:

LH: Tricky sound this is. It's a very filtered sound, not at all like the ROD BASS sound that JR uses for the previous sounds. It's kinda 2 layers sounding. One layer is kinda like a sine wave. It has that deep bass sound to it. The second layer for the bass is a very filtered regular bass sound. The initial sound is very attacky, so there's like a reverse lowpass filter that closes fast when you play it. it's maybe 1/3'd of a second. Pretty quick.
The RH: Choir, Soft Jazz horns *Read: Saxamaphone* and a pingy bell. In this case, it's like the first bell sound we used in the first patch. In your case, the horns need to come down an octave, you need more choir and the bass is too agressive in yours.
Oh, the Choir and the horns are in the same octave, the bells are 1 octave up. Might also consider throwing some clarinet into that horn mix if your synth can handle the layers ;)

CLAV W/MOTOR:
This is the Hit whirring sound.

The thing that... really offset the tone of this sound for me that you did was the orchestral hit. It's ONLY in the low D key, and it's only when you hit it hard.
The RH: Needs more reverb. The Clav sound sounds good. You need to get it to pan Left and right randomly too though. In the upper right hand for the C# D, G# A thing, you need to have xylophone, flute, clav and Pizzicato.
On top of the hit sound, *orchestral hit in the LH* JR has a 2 layer reversed motor sound that pans. While it's a commerical sample and can't exactly be released, what you CAN do is this: Take 2 percussion files, reverse them and filter them to hell to make the whirring sound. It's in stereo so again, this is really dependant on your synth and if it can handle it.

GUITAR&CLAVE:
This is the next logical sound and it's pretty straightforward again. LH is the Guitar/bass combo. RH is a combo of strings/choir, Clav and there's a filtered saw sound on there too. It starts open and closes. It's also an octave above the clav and it's VERY subtle but it's there. That was the big emptyness I noticed with your sound in that section is that it was JUST clav but it is SOOO not just clav there. You'll have to experiment to get the mix just right.

F# MINOR agbfe*:

This is the progressive sounding orchestral ish thingy. Again, LH is just the ROD Guitar/bass sound. The RH is again more complicated than you think:
There's still clav and choir in here. Also in here is faint strings that are 1 octave higher and horns that are in the same octave that the clav is in. This'll get your sound a little fuller for this section. Also gives it a little more "bite" that your sound was missing.

Am Em/G Dm7 C/E:

This is another completely different sound than the first. The LH stays the same here, but the RH gets thicker than the last sound. There's not much change audibly, but it's there. It's at time 2:24 in your file.
There's a synth attack sound, large string sounds which are 1 octave up, and again the clav with the choir sound. The synth attack sound is very fatish, and kinda sounds like horns but more like filtered saw waves. Something again to experiment with.

F#m E/G# D/A A/C:

Again, as described as above. You need to get this change, I think it's an important one. It happens at 2:35. In this one the LH is STILL the same lol, but the RH re-adds that bell attack from NAMM INTRO. There's still the Clav sound, There's still the choir sound, and still the synth strings sound. The bells are quiet but 1 octave up from the choir.

GUITAR&CLAVE

See above Guitar and clave description. Just copy/paste this sound ;)

HITS & CLAVESYNC

LH: FINALLY CHANGES!! It's still the same ROD BASS from before, but has a timpany layer under it. It's the same octave as the guitar sound.
The RH is split up into parts. From F4 to B4, it's just a clav sound *the repeating clav* Above that to the top of the board is the Rock Stack which is specific to Kurzweil but it's basically the Synth horns and strings sound. Remember the strings are 1 octave higher here.
Playing it is awkward too because JR does it like this:
He has suspended hits *by suspended, I mean suspended chords*
So in this case, here's how he plays it: He plays the suspended chord as the hit, and then jumps down to twiddle with the F note on the clav sound.
I personally don't like the orchestral hits you've got going on in your sound but then I'm anal about how things sound too... so ;)

BbM7 E Aaug/G Dm:
Another Kurzweil specific feast here. Pain in the ass to program on another synth actually. LH: ROD bass, without the E-guitar though.
RH: Clav, Choir, and what honestly sounds like a whistle. I mean literally someone synthetically whistling.
Oh, and the clav is filtered with an LFO to go oooooOOOOWWWWOOOOOOWWWWWWOOOoooooo. If that makes ANY sense. ;)

A/G Dm Gaug/A Em:

This one: Mostly stringish stuff. There is hint of choir, and you NEED to have that Clav in there still. Same ROD bass sound.

HEY IN F#m Am Cm:

These are the "HEY!!" samples you were mentioning in your post. Yeah, they do make a difference and it's too bad actually, because they sound good in there lol. I'd recommend searching around for vocal sound effects on the internet - I know you can get similar in the "crowds" human effects that would be very similar. If that's not a direct hint ;) And so you know, they're not keymapped, so they won't change pitch as you go up the keyboard.

The LH: ROD BASS/Wguitar.
The RH: Distorted and very quiet piano, Saws, and a "digital choir" which purposely sounds like a synth choir. Very thin sounding, I almost would suggest a hint of Highpass filter. The HEY samples are in the F#2 to C3 range if you find something that works ;)

D/Eb Bb/F# A/Bb:
This is the descending choir sound. Here's what's in it.

LH is still the ROD Bass and Guitar. Goes up to C4.
RH is the same sound basically the HEY sound, but the choir is less thin. Take the highpass off of it to broaden it up a little.

DESCENT RIFF:
This is the little run that basically is the chords from the previous sound but broken up into descending arppegios. The sound goes like this:

Buzzy saw, Piano, and a hint of ROD BASS an octave below what's there. The rod bass has a filter on it, but it's not an LFO like you have it, it's actually controlled by the Data 1 controller on the Kurzweil but you can assign it to the MOD if you feel more comfortable doing so.
The Saw and the Bass are monophonic, but the Piano isn't.
The only LFO filter on the sound is actually less an LFO and more of an envelope that isn't repeating. It's a WOAAAAHHHHHHOOOOOWWWW sound that closes with a high/lowpass combination. Like wah but not. When you move the Data slider, it just opens that same filter back up but much more than it was when you started it.
I hope that all makes sense... ;)

Eb THEME then Dm:

Okay, there's something about your playing here that you're missing a note, both times. Sounds like you're hitting a G# in the RH instead of an A# during the D# chord shape... *when the LH is playing C* - Just something to check out.
As for the sound - LH: ROD BASS sound with guitar.
RH: Trumpet, Choir and Synth Brass sound. Very stright forward. Look for a nice mix where the trumpet has the attack part covered while the rest is more of a suspending sound.

Dm POWER 2*:

This is JUST before the orchestral Perc thing.(4:04) The sound is still the ROD BASS w/e-guitar on the LH, the RH is the same sound as previous with the trumpet and choir, and there's still the synth brass, but then you have that same whistling sound you had before on there as well. It's 1 octave higher than the horns are.
Make sure that in this sound because it's being held that the horns fade out somewhat. You want the attack volume to be less than the release volume. So start at.. say 100% vol, and after 1 second the horns should fade to about 80% where the choir and whistle sound will be more prominent then.

PERC Gm Am Dm & :

This is the infamous percussion thingy JR does. Awesome IMO but that's just me ;)

Here's what's going on:
This sound is based on PIZZ strings... Important. There's one layer that is the whole length of the keyboard.
There's a second layer again, Pizz, but this one is an octave lower. It's also going to stop at the A3 key. above that should be just the one Pizz layer.
There's a third horn layer. This is from Bb4 to A6. It's simply just a trumpet. Along with that is a single voice choir sound. The sound is a boy's range, and it is 1 octave below the trumpet, but very quiet.

The last layer is the percussion layer and it's complicated. It's all woodblocks, cowbells, rolling tamborine, and triangle sounds.
Here's what you need to know:

C2 - High Woodblock
D#2 - Higher Woodblock
F2 - Mid Woodblock
F#2 - LOW woodblock
A2 - Low/mid woodblock
A#2 - very very faint timpany sound
B2 - lower woodblock
D3 - mid/high woodblock
E3 - short tamb roll. It only lasts a second. (3-4 shakes)
G3 - Stereo woodblock. *slightly different pitches in both ears, but both high*
G#3 - high woodblock
A3 - higher woodblock
Bb3 - low woodblock
C4 - high woodblock
C#4 - mid woodblock
F#4 - lower woodblock
A4 - mid woodblock
Bb4 - castanet hit, or very high woodblock
C5 - low woodblock
D5 - mid woodblock *again, stereo*
F#5 - tambale low hit. Again, could substitute with a low woodblock
G5 - high woodblock
Bb5 - high castanet, or high woodblock
B5 - lower woodblock
C#6 - also low woodblock, higher slightly than previous woodblock though.
D6 - Triangle ping in Left channel, low woodblock in right
D#6 - high woodblock
E6 - Tamb Roll (mostly in left channel, and this one continues rolling if you hold the key)
F6 - sleighbell

There are more, but none that are impacting to the sound.

Eb THEME then Dm:
Again, copy sound from above

DM W/MEL 1*TO LD:

simple, (4:43 by the way) it's ROD BASS with guitar on LH, Strings (up one octave), Choir, and prominent piano sound on the RH.

LEAD RELAX 4 Gm:

ROD BASS w/guitar on LH
There's kind of a sawish/wakeman-esque lead sound on the right hand. It DOES have an interesting programming feature to it though: It has a long decay time. It doesn't fade out for about 4 seconds. It does get a LITTLE quieter, but then at about 4 seconds it just drops right off. The reasoning for this is that you can't use the pedal to hold the notes *because then it'll hold the bass sound too* so by making the lead monophonic and then lengthening the release, it sounds like it's being held the whole time ;)

Gm Dm C/E TO HEY:

5:04 - this one's got the ROD BASS/Guitar on the LH still, and the RH is Choir, with a Trumpet 1 octave up. On top of that there's also Piano and synth brass.

F/Eb G/F 2*HEY:

Remember the other HEY sound we had? (HEY IN F#m Am Cm)
Okay, this is the same sound but with one alteration. This has got another Kurzweil specific randomization sound. you could say it sounds like aliens, because it does, but you can hear it pretty clearly on the recording in the real thing. The only way you could re-create this sound is to have a saw sound that is slightly distorted, but quiet, fading in and out randomly between 2 pitches which are a 4'th apart and the 4th is down from the root note you're playing. That's the trick. It'd be easier to sample just this layer and if you find you need it that bad, it can be done ;)
It's just a weird sound, that's all lol

Oh, and if you find those HEY samples, they're in the LH as well again. This time though, before the HEY samples didn't have any keymapping *they didn't change pitch before* but now they do.


About your playing in this spot - If you're using my transcription, I should have made this more clear and it's my fault: The LH hits are just that - they're hits. they should be somewhat staccato. When you recorded that part it was holding those bass notes instead of On/off almost right away ;)

D/Eb Bb/F# A/Bb:

This is the same as before, that descending choir/strings sound from before, just before we got into that monophonic filter lead with the chromatics part.

C FINALE TO TOP:

This one finally changes the LH again. ROD BASS but without the E guitar.
The RH is another monophonic lead sound. The lead is a monophonic Saw and Trumpet sound. The Saw is one octave lower than the trumpet and a hair more quiet as well.
There's also a digital piano *like an Epiano layer* and this also has a choir sound on it.
There's a "secret" 4'th layer that is ALSO voices, one octave below the voices in the upper part of the keyboard but this one only goes from C3 to Bb3. It also has a timpany layer underneath as well.

TOP WITH END:
This is the final sound for OTE, and it's the same as the first opening sound, ROD BASS on the LH, but there's that timpany layer again. Also, PLEASE remember that you have to have a gong sample on the lower C2 note for the final hit.

Anyway, overall I think it was okay. The other think I would suggest working on is at the C FINALE TO TOP section with the lead before the final sound - You need to work on the independance of your hands there. I can hear the RH is fine but the LH is missing beats because it's still too attached to the RH. Something to practice very slowly and work up to.

The other thing I notice about the overall sound: You've got to make the total sound of your synth more harsh. It's very mellow as it is and isn't really cutting through - it's got to be edgy and bright, and unless it's the recording that's sort of... muffling that somehow, that's the only real suggestion I could say to keep in mind when programming this song. It's meant to be synthy and if you're using real string sounds instead of synth strings, it's going to be more organic which doesn't always cut right through.

Anyway, if you need more help with the song, let me know. Hopefully this will get you pointed in the right direction.
Also if you have questions about a specific spot, let me know and I can get into more details for you. This was just a "quick" run-through although probably the longest post i've ever done here ;)

Thanks for reading!
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  #4  
Old 03-23-2005, 02:53 AM
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Oh yeah, and here's the transcription I did. You'll need Sibleus or scorch to play this file though ;)

http://www.matrixscreensaver.150m.co...verTheEdge.sib
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  #5  
Old 03-23-2005, 07:37 PM
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No replies? Heh, you must still be reading it! ;)

I just hope all that analyzation didn't go to waste lol
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  #6  
Old 03-24-2005, 01:15 AM
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First of all, thanks for the write-up. It will really help me make this piece sound better.

I used you transcription for the notes, but when I was programming the sounds, I just listened to the original version, and where I heard a patch change, I started working on a new sound, so I probably missed a couple due to subtleties.

Since I was originally pressed for time when I was programming the sounds (I had the talent show coming up) I took presets and assembled them into various Performances on my S90 that sounded close to the real sounds. This limited me to only 4 layers, which isn't nearly enough. Now that I have more time, I'll be able to program the raw sounds, so I'll have access to 16 layers.

For the gong sound in the NAMM intro, is it that same one as on the last note of the piece? Also, is this NAMM as in the trade show or is it something else?

Just to clarify, when you say ROD bass, do you mean the bass+guitar sound? Is the bass part of the sound a synth bass or an electric bass?

When I made the Jazz sound, I used an organ layer in the RH because I couldn't find the right bell sound. Is that a good substitute?

In the Clav with Motor part, could you describe the sound he uses in the LH? It sounds like some kind of weird filter thing, but I'm not sure exactly.

In the Guitar and Clav part, is the filtered saw on a tempo-synced LFO or does it just sweep once?

When I did the Hits and Clavsync patch, I got the sus4 hits with only 2 notes by layering another sound a fifth up. I think that's what you indicated in the footnote, but does JR play it like that?

On the A/G Dm Gaug/A Em sound, do I add the Eguitar back in the LH?

The S90 doesn't have a sampler, so I'm not going to be able to do the Hey effect. I'll look through the onboard sound and see if there's some kind of percussion thing I can use.

For the Descend Riff, is the ROD bass the only thing that the mod wheel affects, or does it also sweep the filter on the saw?

I think I've figured out how to get the percussion for the horn/pizz part. I'm going to try creating a custom drum kit, and then integrate it with the other sounds in performance mode.

Is the lead sound I used during the Lead Relax part good? It seemed like there maybe should be some portamento, but I'm not sure.

What kind of sound do I use for the LH hits during the F/Eb G/F 2*HEY part?

For the final sound, is the timpani under all of the LH notes?

On the "darkness" of the sound, I think it may be caused by either too much compression or because of the conversion to mp3. I'll try to figure it out for next time.

Thanks for all your help. I'm going to get started programming these new sounds.

This is my longest post ever too. :D
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  #7  
Old 03-24-2005, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
For the gong sound in the NAMM intro, is it that same one as on the last note of the piece? Also, is this NAMM as in the trade show or is it something else?

The gong is similar - In the end of the peice it's actually stereo. *it's a mono sound that was put on 2 layers so it has a bit of a filter effect sound*
but yes, it's the same sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
Just to clarify, when you say ROD bass, do you mean the bass+guitar sound? Is the bass part of the sound a synth bass or an electric bass?
ROD bass - I'm referring to the same bass sound you have without the guitar on NAMM INTRO. Rod bass is just the bass, Rod bass+guitar is with the e-guitar as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
When I made the Jazz sound, I used an organ layer in the RH because I couldn't find the right bell sound. Is that a good substitute?
Nah, because the bell doesn't suspend like an organ does. Keep searching - you'll find it ;) *Hint - try the same bell sound from the NAMM INTRO sound*


Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
In the Clav with Motor part, could you describe the sound he uses in the LH? It sounds like some kind of weird filter thing, but I'm not sure exactly.
Yeah, the filter thing is actually just the sound of a reversed motor. The LH is still just the rod bass sound. The filter sweep is the sample of the motor in both channels being reversed and panned. I'd honestly say start messing with samples and their pitch LFO's ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
In the Guitar and Clav part, is the filtered saw on a tempo-synced LFO or does it just sweep once?
It's on an LFO but it's not tempo synched.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
When I did the Hits and Clavsync patch, I got the sus4 hits with only 2 notes by layering another sound a fifth up. I think that's what you indicated in the footnote, but does JR play it like that?
Yeah, that's what I did too, I find it WAY easier, but Jordan plays it the REAL way ;)


Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
On the A/G Dm Gaug/A Em sound, do I add the Eguitar back in the LH?
not yet :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
The S90 doesn't have a sampler, so I'm not going to be able to do the Hey effect. I'll look through the onboard sound and see if there's some kind of percussion thing I can use.
Good idea! Try a quiet orchestral hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
For the Descend Riff, is the ROD bass the only thing that the mod wheel affects, or does it also sweep the filter on the saw?
Both the filter sweep and the bass sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
I think I've figured out how to get the percussion for the horn/pizz part. I'm going to try creating a custom drum kit, and then integrate it with the other sounds in performance mode.
Yeah, that's basically what has to be done regardless, no matter what synth you use ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
Is the lead sound I used during the Lead Relax part good? It seemed like there maybe should be some portamento, but I'm not sure.
There needed to be more portamento and it has to be buzzier. Your lead was too smooth. And it should have 3-4 layers and they need to be just a HAIR out of synch pitch wise to get some phazing going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
What kind of sound do I use for the LH hits during the F/Eb G/F 2*HEY part?
Still just the Rod bass+guitar, but remember it's not to be held - that was more of a performance thing than a sound thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PsawniK
For the final sound, is the timpani under all of the LH notes?

On the "darkness" of the sound, I think it may be caused by either too much compression or because of the conversion to mp3. I'll try to figure it out for next time.
The timpany is under all the LH notes.

Conversion sucks, but meh ;) Just something to keep in mind.

Anyway, glad this helped - I'm looking forward to hearing the new revision of the sound!!
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  #8  
Old 03-24-2005, 02:03 PM
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Wow do you guys have a PhD in Jordan Rudess Studies or something? :shock:
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  #9  
Old 03-24-2005, 03:44 PM
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Combine a little bit of crazy, some psycho and a hint of stalker, and that's why I know as much about it as I do. Can't speak for Psawnik though ;)
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  #10  
Old 03-24-2005, 04:45 PM
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That was amazing... Far beyond what I could do... PsawniK, you rock. You too Enigma.
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