Yamaha PSR E-403

[Autumn_fire]

Hey guys, I've never played the keyboard in a serious manner...I only have some ancient thing that's more like a toy with like...5 keys or so. But listening to alot of Dream Theater, Jordan Rudess, and progressive music in general, I've become very interested in learning to play.

Now I love it technical so I was thinking I'd get a keyboard with easily customizable sounds and lots of settings, but still for beginners.

I've been looking into the Yamaha PSR E-403 (I think that's the name) and it seems really nice. It's probably the cheapest "real" keyboard one can get, and it sounds really good with customizable pitch bend and everything. It's about $400 (converted from crazy swedish money in my head :wink: ) and I was wondering if anyone had any opinions on this one.

I'm a guitarist for 2½ years now, and as mentioned I can't play the keyboard, I just want something that'll give me the ability to practice and still be the real deal. Is this the right choice?

Thanks in advance.

[Grey Loki]

The Yamaha PSR series are ok for beginner keyboardists who won't play more than the stock sounds (pianos, organs, strings, and so on). As a progrock keyboardist, pretty soon in your career you're going to want to look at creating your own sounds using whatever synthesis type takes your fancy (most people start with subtractive and them -usually- will take a look at frequency modulation and physical modelling synthesis. At least, that's what I did :P).

I would say take a look at an Alesis Fusion 8HD (or a 6HD), the Yamaha EX5, or perhaps something like a used Korg Trinity or early Triton.

Hope this helps.

[-=AnatomiC=-]

It's okay for a beginner, but:
First: It won't last very long - you will have to get a better keyboard, because your demands will grow with your skills. So you will have to buy a better keyboard anyway, so why not buy it from the very start?

Second: if you buy a cheap keyboard, there is a chance that you won't like keyboards, just because it's bad: keys feel cheap, crappy looks, the sound is not rich enough, no possibility to create your own patches (and that's what the keyboard music is all about IMO: creating your own sounds).

On the other hand, if you buy a good keybed from the very start, you may "fall love" with it, you will really like it, and as a result, you wont quit playing keyboard - it will be just too fascinating. You will be more motivated, and you will practice more, and improve your skills.
And there will be no need to trow it away (unlike a cheap keyboard): a good keyboard can serve a lifetime, because every keyboard has an unique sound, even if you get a better one.

Like Grey Loki said, Alesis Fusion HD is a bargain! It's very very professional keyboard, with 88 keys, only for 1000$ new! It has everything you would ever need - it will serve you for years, unlike a cheap keyboard.
And it can compete with keyboards, which are 3 time more expensive!
It's a really good time to check it out. Unbeatable price/performance ratio...

[Autumn_fire]

$1000 eh? I'm sure that's a bargain but I'm a little short on cash :P I think I'll look into a used model then.

Also, I don't need a high-end model for creating patches, do I? Isn't there a way to just connect it to my computer and like...download patches and sounds?

[-=AnatomiC=-]

Also, I don't need a high-end model for creating patches, do I? Isn't there a way to just connect it to my computer and like...download patches and sounds?

Alesis Fusion 8HD has 88 hammer action keys, which automatically makes it more expensive. Alesis Fusion 6HD, with 61 synthesizer action keys goes for 799$, new.
Amount or keys, action is the only difference between those two models (it's not like you will get less features, if you buy 6HD).
But I highly recommend it, a good keyboard like that wont get any cheaper!

As a matter of fact, you do need a professional (which mean, more expensive) keyboard to make patches. I'm pretty sure it's impossible on PSR, and no, I don't think you can download sounds.

Fusion HD has 2 sound engine, by the way. If I'm not mistaken, some kind of a ROM synth engine, which uses samples to create patches - good for acoustic instruments. Very good for synths also. Standard synth engine for a workstation.
And also a very powerful Virtual Analog synth - to create synthesizer sounds, pads, leads, basses. etc.

Even most expensive flagships, like Fantom or Motif have only 1 engine, I think.

Modern music is all about making your sound fit into the context, which is impossible/very difficult if you don't have the ability to create or edit patches.

[Omega Monkey]

I've been made obsolete!

Except I will just add that the Fusion also has FM and physical modeling, as well as audio recording (and of course sampling, which goes together with the ROM PCM sounds). It's one of the better choices for someone on a limited budget, especially if they are "forced" to buy new (like apparently people from countries other than the US, UK, and some parts of Western Europe are).

Also, to comment on the "1 engine" thing, the Motif stock only has one, but through PLG cards you can add up to 3(?) more.

The EX5 is also a great option. You can sometimes get them as cheap as $500 or so on ebay. It's basically the pioneering synth that both the Fusion and the OASYS were based on. For some retarded reason, Yamaha abandoned the overall concept of the EX(tended Synthesis) line, took a few parts and pieces and started the Motif series, which while amazing, would benefit from some of the capabilities of the EX5 (some of which no other synth has, like FDSP). So the EX5 while having the usual PCM/Sampling of all workstations, also has very nice virtual analog (AN) and physical modeling (VL) engines, plus the aforementioned FDSP which is like a very sophisticated effects processor that allows you to do unheard of things such as apply pulse width modulation to a drum sound. FDSP also has amazing magnetic pickup emulations for killer guitar, bass guitar, electric piano, and clavinet sounds (but of course you can use them on any sound you want to create totally unique sounds as well).

It does have a few weaknesses though. But certainly its light years better than ANY PSR. And honestly, for a beginner, you probably wouldnt even notice the few limitations the EX has. But just so you know what they are, the big ones are lack of DSP power, and a slow SCSI bus.

The lack of DSP power isnt really a weakness per se. It just means you run into limitations trying to do certain things. Like you cant use an AN voice and a VL voice together (but you CAN add PCM voices to either). Also, polyphony is limited in those "special engines" (including FDSP). You get 2 "elements" with 2 oscillators each for AN (which can be used monophonically or duophonically), 1 element of VL (and for AN or VL you can use the remaining elements for PCM with whatever remains of the total 128 note polyphony), and 16 voices of FDSP (not sure how this works with polyphony exactly). And also you only get 2 insert effects at a time. But you also get "chorus" and "reverb" per voice, so youmay not even need the inserts.

The slow SCSI speed only affects the loading and saving of samples or other files to or from the EX. For instance if you had the EX maxed out on memory (66 mb of DRAM and 16 mb of flash RAM), it would take about 40 minutes to load the entire memory from a SCSI zip drive. Which could be a problem if you play a lot of shows (but you just have to make sure you have enough time before the show to load everything in). But for just playing at home or rehearsing its not too big a deal. Plus if you have the flash RAM, you have 16 mb ofyour favorite samples all the time with no loading, so then the SCSI speed becomes less of an issue.

Anyway, I own an EX5 myself, and I love it. I've had it for about 2.5 years and I dont plan to ever get rid of it. In fact, I plan to add a SCSI board to it, a zip drive, and max out the DRAM and flash.

[Omega Monkey]

Oh, and for the dead budget minded but still pretty good sounding setup, you could try to get something like a Yamaha S03 or S30, or a CS6X. Or look for an MU100 or MU128 and then get a controller keyboard (at least 49 keys).

[-=AnatomiC=-]

I've been made obsolete! Blah Blah DSP, Blah Blah Yamaha Blah Blah AN voice VL voice (no offense, just want to spare some space)

Come on, give Autumn_Fire a break! He wants to buy his first, you can't expect that he actually understands it!
I had a very hard time understanding what you just said!

Note: Buying a second keyboard is indeed easier in USA for example.
Good economical situation > more consumers, money > more people who want to get rid of their stuff, and buy new stuff > things like eBay work great > lot of choice in the second hand market.

Which is not the case in smaller countries or in countries with bad economical situation.

[Autumn_fire]

Yeah it's hard finding what I want second hand with only 9 million fellow countrymen :tongue:

And yeah, I don't know what the schmuck he's talking about but I want something cheap with lots of cool sounds and a pitch bend, damnit! :tongue: For get the whole patch thing, I wouldn't know how to use it anyway.

Is the PSR E-403 a good starting keyboard that I can live with for like a year or so? I mean I can't even paly Für Elise, I'm a total newbie here. I just learnt the main riff in "Full Circle" from Octavarium though :D And I do enjoy the A minor scale, lol. But that's about the only thing i can play. So bear with me.

[-=AnatomiC=-]

For get the whole patch thing, I wouldn't know how to use it anyway

Well, you can't learn how to do it, if you don't have it :biggrin:

But for a year or two, it will be fine... maybe more.... but almost certainly less.

I just don't see why you should pay 400$ first, then throw it away, just to buy something more sophisticated later.
Fusion will cost you just twice as much (6HD), but will give 100 times more flexibility, so you won't have to buy anything else.

Besides - who says, that in 2 years, you will be able to buy a keyboard, at that price? Like I said, a keyboard like Fusion, should cost at least 2000$, maybe even more...

It's your decision....

Don't forget the world of MIDI controllers: it's a professional low price solution...

[Omega Monkey]

I want something cheap with lots of cool sounds and a pitch bend, damnit!

Then get the EX5!

And what do you mean forget the whole "patch thing"? A patch is just a sound. A keyboard without any sounds would be pretty useless.

Basically, a pro synth is going to have EDITABLE patches (meaning you can change them or even load in totally new ones from various sources). Something like the PSR has "static" patches, meaning they are always going to be the same. You might be able to change the eq or something or make other minor tweaks but you are pretty much stuck with what you've got.

Typically the sounds on keyboards like that are only suitable for playing hot cross buns in your moms living room and not passable for any "cool" music.

But don't trust me, I've only gone from having a Yamaha PS through having various synths from the last 25 years from the big 3 (Yamaha, Roland, and Korg), as well as Alesis and Ensoniq, including some of the coolest models that you could get during that time. So wtf do I know?

[-=AnatomiC=-]

Some very strong points, indeed...
I don't have much experience with gear, but I know what I need. About this static program thing:

When I first bought my Radias, I begun to check out all preset programs Korg made for it... it was fun while it lasted, but I was bored after 6 hours, and just begun making my own programs from scratch :biggrin:
If I could not edit it, I would sell it after a week or so... In my opinion, it would be a toy - even if it sounded just as fat.

But now we are talking about Sound Design, and not keyboard playing, I'm afraid... That's what Omega Monkey explained earlier - it sounds boring, but I enjoy it at least as much as just playing music! That was the main reason for purchasing Radias: a very easily laid out sound design tool, w.o.w. a synthesizer.

You could be a "pure" keyboard player, who doesn't make his sounds, but a progressive keyboard player, is also a sound designer, let's not forget that!