Patch Changing Software?

[trentonresident]

My apologies for this "midiot" question. I'm playing live with an sy99, pc88, and d5 doing 80s covers. I use a g4 iBook as part of my live gear, including vokator and a few software synths. I have a simple edirol ua-20 midi in/out usb device. I would like to have a program on the mac to send program changes to the three synths for easy patch changes...looking for the easiest solution. Midi sent to software synths from sy99 midi out.

Thanks in advance!

The villiage midiot.

[Grey Loki]

First off, welcome to the forums!

I personally don't know of the existence of any patch changing software that would do what you describe. However, I can think of a couple of ways to accomplish what you want, using what you already have.

The first is to line up several 'copies' of your VSTs, each running whatever patches you want, each set to a different MIDI channel - that way, to change patch, you just need to change your controller's output MIDI channel.

The other way, which is dependant on the VST, would be to search within the MIDI control matrix of each VST (assuming, of course, it has one) until you find a parameter that will allow you to change (increment) patches when it gets a message from a MIDI control number (like how MIDI controller #1 is modulation, and so on) - set that to a control number you're not using (check a MIDI control number chart to be sure), and then in your synth/controller's menu, assign a foot pedal to that CC#, and you should be set.

Hope this helps.

[trentonresident]

These are good suggestions, thanks - the sad part is that I only use the vst instruments live for a few "specialized" songs (why can't this be love, jump, let's go, and the vocoder on "in the air tonight, mr. roboto" so I'm mostly interested in patching the other synths, whose displays leave a lot to be desired. Could I run sequencing program that sends program changes to the 3 hardware synths? Again - apologies for my midi ignorance.

[/QUOTE]I personally don't know of the existence of any patch changing software that would do what you describe. However, I can think of a couple of ways to accomplish what you want, using what you already have.

The first is to line up several 'copies' of your VSTs, each running whatever patches you want, each set to a different MIDI channel - that way, to change patch, you just need to change your controller's output MIDI channel.

The other way, which is dependant on the VST, would be to search within the MIDI control matrix of each VST (assuming, of course, it has one) until you find a parameter that will allow you to change (increment) patches when it gets a message from a MIDI control number (like how MIDI controller #1 is modulation, and so on) - set that to a control number you're not using (check a MIDI control number chart to be sure), and then in your synth/controller's menu, assign a foot pedal to that CC#, and you should be set.

Hope this helps.[/QUOTE]

[jeebustrain]

Ableton Live can do this really well - Besides running as your actual VST host, you can set up midi clips to control both hardware and software patch changes. You can arrange these clips by song. As long as the software and hardware respond to midi CC (it doesn't handle sysex very well), you can pretty much control anything.

As far as hardware goes, I've controlled a Trinity Rack, an Access Virus, OB12, MS2000, a Darkstar, Motif, and Roland & Yamaha drum modules and never had an issue. The only thing you have to contend with is figuring out what MSB/LSB the device responds (most of the time, it's not documented very well). You won't be able to really do any realtime editing on the devices (unless you specifically map midi controls), but things like patch changes (not just stuff in sequential order - it can move anyway you want) are easy.

[Liquidkey]

Luca has made a program change software:

http://www.progsounds.com/2007/07/09/ps-program-switcher-beta-1/

-Mikael

[Omega Monkey]

I would say Jeebs probably has the right idea. He has dealt with a lot of that kind of stuff.

Also I will say thats a pretty cool setup you have. Myself I have the TG-77 and a D50 (with PG1000 programmer), plus a bunch of other stuff (including my prized EX5).

Actually, speaking of the EX5, you should check out the EX5 Tech site/forum. There's a subforum for Yamaha SY/TG stuff, and at any rate, theres a lot of really knowledgeable guys on there that you can help you with most problems. Theres also a pretty good british Yamaha forum with an SY/TG subforum.

[trentonresident]

Which version of Ableton are you using? Thanks!

Ableton Live can do this really well - Besides running as your actual VST host, you can set up midi clips to control both hardware and software patch changes. You can arrange these clips by song. As long as the software and hardware respond to midi CC (it doesn't handle sysex very well), you can pretty much control anything.

As far as hardware goes, I've controlled a Trinity Rack, an Access Virus, OB12, MS2000, a Darkstar, Motif, and Roland & Yamaha drum modules and never had an issue. The only thing you have to contend with is figuring out what MSB/LSB the device responds (most of the time, it's not documented very well). You won't be able to really do any realtime editing on the devices (unless you specifically map midi controls), but things like patch changes (not just stuff in sequential order - it can move anyway you want) are easy.

[jeebustrain]

Which version of Ableton are you using? Thanks!

I'm using Live v6, but I've been able to do all the hardware/software control since version 4.

[mdsonic]

I'm also using Ableton Live in my live rig, in addition to running all of my midi gear I use softsynths as well as trigger samples in Live with a Korg Controlpad. Live is absolutly a great medium for using as a one stop program. I always found it funny that mostly DJ types are using it and not a lot of keyboardists, it works so well.....

[Athox]

I've been thinking about making an app like this, and I have made a few tests. It's not as user friendly as luca's. Mine would be more detailed as well, allowing for a "master table" within the app, and organising by songs, channels, etc. And as I said, a very user non-friendly console app with command line stuff.
I made it in Java at first, until I realised it sucks when you make sysex-messages (it often gets it wrong or fucks it up somehow... I tried to make it send a yamaha "progUp"-command (sysex) to my MO8, and it ended up creating a drum layer on some of my Korg Triton-combinations which used the channel 7 (same as the general chan for my yamaha). And at the same time no effect on the MO8. No idea how that happened. :biggrin: )

I'm going to fix it up in c++ so that i can make the raw midi messages. should prevent it from being a bitch.

[Grey Loki]

I've been thinking about making an app like this, and I have made a few tests. It's not as user friendly as luca's. Mine would be more detailed as well, allowing for a "master table" within the app, and organising by songs, channels, etc. And as I said, a very user non-friendly console app with command line stuff.
I made it in Java at first, until I realised it sucks when you make sysex-messages (it often gets it wrong or fucks it up somehow... I tried to make it send a yamaha "progUp"-command (sysex) to my MO8, and it ended up creating a drum layer on some of my Korg Triton-combinations which used the channel 7 (same as the general chan for my yamaha). And at the same time no effect on the MO8. No idea how that happened. :biggrin: )

I'm going to fix it up in c++ so that i can make the raw midi messages. should prevent it from being a bitch.

Y'know, thinking about it, you could probably do the same thing (with a handy GUI) within the Max component of Max/MSP.

[trentonresident]

I'm also using Ableton Live in my live rig, in addition to running all of my midi gear I use softsynths as well as trigger samples in Live with a Korg Controlpad. Live is absolutly a great medium for using as a one stop program. I always found it funny that mostly DJ types are using it and not a lot of keyboardists, it works so well.....

Pardon the upcoming yelling I'm about to do.

THAT ROCKS!

I'm hitting a spacebar in iTunes for a couple "samples" now - WHICH I HATE!

I will have to try this out - this is a great forum - thanks to everyone who has responded. Thanks to Jordan Rudess for having such a cool forum.

Would my near future midi setup look like sy99out>EdirolMIDIin>Mac then EdirolMidiOut>SY99in/through>PC88IN/Through>D5in ?

[Athox]

only problem with ableton is that it doesn't support anything other than 4/4... though that may have changed in the new version...

other than that it rocks insanely hard.

[jeebustrain]

only problem with ableton is that it doesn't support anything other than 4/4... though that may have changed in the new version...

other than that it rocks insanely hard.


Yes it does, you can use any time signature you want. It's been like that since before v3. The only problem is (at least up until v7), that it could only do a single global time signature - meaning that you can do a song in 21/16 if you want, but the whole song would have to be in 21/16 if you were doing it in Linear view. There are ways around it in Clip view though (manually set your loop points to whatever odd meter you want for that clip). Also, you could always programatically trigger the global time change mid-song via Live's Python API.

Nevertheless, Version 7 adds true meter change support, not unlike most other linear based sequencers.

[Grey Loki]

Would my near future midi setup look like sy99out>EdirolMIDIin>Mac then EdirolMidiOut>SY99in/through>PC88IN/Through>D5in ?

I would go:

SY99 OUT> Edirol IN> Mac> Edirol THROUGH> PC88 IN then THROUGH> D5 IN.

That would allow you to control each synth (your Mac, the PC88 and the D5 (if they're synths - I haven't checked) independantly by switching the MIDI channel on your SY99.

A MIDI THROUGH/THRU (*cringe*) duplicates exactly what is received in the IN without adding anything - literally the MIDI goes through the synth without changing.

Hope this helps.

PS: The first half of the Wikipedia article on MIDI may be useful for you, and I believe the Sound on Sound website also has a few articles on MIDI basics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI

www.soundonsound.com

[trentonresident]

I would go:

SY99 OUT> Edirol IN> Mac> Edirol THROUGH> PC88 IN then THROUGH> D5 IN.

That would allow you to control each synth (your Mac, the PC88 and the D5 (if they're synths - I haven't checked) independantly by switching the MIDI channel on your SY99.

A MIDI THROUGH/THRU (*cringe*) duplicates exactly what is received in the IN without adding anything - literally the MIDI goes through the synth without changing.


I want the software on the mac to implement the patch changes using Ableton, so I think that midi path you suggest has no way for patch changes from mac to use "through" to do the patch changes on the Kurzweil Pc88 and Roland D5 keyboards. Seems to me that I'll need to have midi out chain through all keyboards starting at the Mac - and - some input from the sy99 to play the software synths. There's no reason in the tunes I'm playing to play the roland or the kurzweil from the sy99 keyboard.

Another wrench in the works - and this may take some inve$tment on my part - I'm reasonably sure (gear's packed now) that the Edirol has only 2 midi ports, and I *think* the out cannot be assigned "through"

Thanks!