Are modes useless?

[Pyro]

Its seems to me after spending months learning modes that they are useless.

Take C Major for example. You can learn the scale, build all the chords of the scale and start making a song with all the chords blah blah blah. Great

Now turn that into a Lydian with a raised 4th (F#) and you get pretty much nothing. You have a C over a Dmaj chord that sounds weird and you can solo over it with the C lydian scale but thats it. You cant just play C then C over D all day cause that will be boring so whats the point.

I dont get it. Modes are not musical at all.

[MrPillow]

Modes, keys, scales, it's all gibberish to me. I just know what notes go with what notes, in what order, and play what sounds "good".

[PaddyShadow]

Modes are just additional names for starting the same scale from a different note.
So if your song is in C but you start with F it's called F Lydian and that's it.

[Simian]

Not useless...you just gotta realize when they can add color to your playing...I mean if you are playing in a minor key you are already playing in an Aelion mode...Or the 6th degree of the realitive major..So if you were playing some jazz progressions you may find that regardless of the key signature certain progressions may lend themselves to certain modes...Or I mean to say a chord in the piece may sound better with like a dorian minor scale over the chord..I usually try to think of chord scales, but sometimes make it easier to explain...Take Steve Vai.....he does alot of modal stuff....alot....

[sean]

i actually find modes to be pretty useful in my playing. i wouldn't give up on them if i were you.

[Mush]

The modes are the spice of life. There is more to it than the scales. The tendencies of harmonic motion are different, which means throw out I-IV-V progressions and V-I cadences. In modal harmony 5 tends to go up, 3 goes up & 2 goes up & down. In tonal harmony 5 tends to go down, 3 goes down & 2 up.
Try these progressions out for the real modal feel.
Mixolydian: I-V-ii-vii-I
Dorian: i-III-IV-i
Ionian: I--IV-vi-iii-IV-I
Lydian: I-V-vii-II-I or I-V-II-I
Aeoilian: i-VI-VII-VII6-i
Phrygian: i-III-iv-vii6-i or i-iv-II-vii-i
Aeolian/Dorian: i-IV-VI-VII-i


I also use pandiatonicism often. Play clusters of most of the notes in the scale, the note which is duplicated the most is what chord it is. If there is more than one note that has the most duplicates, then the one of those which has the most 5ths is what chord it is. To make it easy just grab octaves in the bass with clusters in the right hand. Presence of the tritone gives an unresolved psudo-dominant state and absence of one of the tritone pitches gives a psudo-tonic state. Avoid V-I cadencial bass movement to really be pandiatonic.

[Mathieu Fiset]

Modes are my favorites tool for improvisation and composition

Just take Manahil...

And listen to Planet X ! Or well...John Petrucci love to play in different modes too !

[Bipabew]

When you play modes you are using the same scales tones as when playing major scales, however you are using a different degree of the scale as the tonic. This changes the point of reference that people hear as the "home base" note of a piece of music. Since that has now changed the interval relationships, the melody created when ascending the scale is different than just playing the major scale. This allows for all kinds of different moods to be created.

I recommend that you listen to Joe Satriani. He uses modes all the time in his music. He uses what is called "Pitch Axis Theory." I'm pretty sure that JR uses modes in some of his music as well.

BTW: My music theory teacher at college said about a week ago that modes are not really used anymore. While that holds true for the kind of music she is doing, mostly classical and movie scores with heavy baroque influence, it is very different in the jazz and prog worlds.

So my advice would be to learn the modes. It's always to your advantage to have another improvisation tool in your arsenal. And modes give you lots of creative tools to work with.

Good luck! :wink:

-Chris

[Pyro]

This thread is becoming really helpfull. Thanks for explaining

[Mush]

The modes are used now more than ever, especially in classical and movie scores. Many of the modern composers use the modes, like Arvo Part, Bartok, Holst, Barber, Sibelius, Britten, Debussy, Ravel, Stravinsky, Roy Harris. Listen to Vaughan Williams "Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis". And movie scores are totally loaded with the modes. The last progression I listed above is almost like the one used in the movie 'Exodus'. In the Baroque era the modal use had a different feel because of the influence of old modal hymns & chants like "Christ Lag In Todesbanden" and "Missa de Angeles". These are the church modes. The Dorian Toccata & Fugue by Bach and the Phrygian Prelude & Fugue by Buxtehude are two modal baroque pieces I like to play. And the modern classical composers like Bartok use a different modality which is based on old folk tunes. This distinction between the two types of modal practices is important.

[Grey Loki]

In case you want a readily-accessible aural example of modes in practice, near the end of one of the most-viewed 'Canon Rock' guitar shred videos on YouTube, the guitarists switches into a modal scale.

I'll see if I can find the link and post it here.

[altruist]

Modes are definitely not useless... I just don't like typical renaissance music that's built completely around dorian, phrygian, lydian, and mixolydian modes; everything from that era fricking sucks.

[SerFox]

*reads the title*

o.o *blink.*

*reads it again*

o.o *blink.*

Um... No?

Modes are extremely useful, you get a much avried sound from them and it gievs you a nice basis for things, and allows you to express different things in differnt ways. Sure, you don't have to stick in them, I'm a firm believer in using basic theory as a grounding, but I never stick to it. Maybe A is out of the current key and mode, but I wanna play it anyway, even if it doesn't work, it's INTERESTING. I figure I'll never get anywhere by sticking to what I'm allowed to do.

That's just plain boring.

[FRETPICK]

That a serious question upon modes? Errr Just a little.:biggrin:

[eibbor]

I just wanted to add my thanks for the posting of this thread. The whole concept of a mode has confused me up until it was explained here!

If it really is the same scale, just from a different starting point, I've been unknowingly using them all the time :p... but sparingly within a song. Again, sort of unknowingly, but now that I look back, it all makes sense. "Hey, this section needs a slightly different feel to it, why don't I emphasize this note instead of this note".

As a former guitarist, I gotta say, keyboard makes learning theory exponentially easier. It's so much easier to picture scales and stuff in your head using a keybed, instead of a guitar neck. :D

[Analogkid]

Modes, keys, scales, it's all gibberish to me. I just know what notes go with what notes, in what order, and play what sounds "good".


I play the same way. Many of the best blues players of all times like Johnson, muddy waters, Redbone and a bunch of others only knew a few scales but became very well versed with them and knew them inside out so they could improvise and jam with just about anyone

[Athox]

I think it's wrong to think of modes as something to use. It's more of a theoretical approach to analysing an existing piece. When you make your own music you would think in terms of the first mode, unless you are after a very particular sound, ie spanish/french(? try it with an accordion sound :tongue: ) phrygian, or folk music mixolydian

[jenius_92000]

I absolutely love playing with modes! My favourite is when you are playing in C minor and you use the C Dorian to shred, or if you want to be a bit more obscure, use the Locrian mode (which I recommend) or the Phrygian mode.

Oh yeah, like I said, M0d3z UB3R pwn!!!!!11111

[lkin3]

I think it's wrong to think of modes as something to use. It's more of a theoretical approach to analysing an existing piece.


This is totally true..and true of all theory. Theory is just a way of talking about the sounds we can make, so of course we can't say modes are useless. But it is perfectly legitmate to say the theory of modes may be useless to an individual musician, if being aware that starting on D in a improvisation over a C-Major progression means he or she is playing in Dorian doesn't expand that person's ability.

I do find it really helpful, however..it lets you know what to expect when your improvising...you know if you play start with a certain pitch on a improvisation that you're not going to be surprised with an unwanted sound. I guess this is a more accurate definition of theory, that it allows you to predict the way something will sound.

[Mantarkus]

I think the problem is when people are tought that the different modes is just starting the scale from a different note and ending at the octave :frown: without expanding to the interval relation. The way I teach my students is that they have to figure out the C scale in every mode and play a certain song originaly in C mayor but now in every mode, "Are you sleeping?" (known as "Frère Jacques" or "Martinillo" in other countries) is a good example. At the end they understand that this is part of their arsenal.

David C.

[rlainhart]

Modes are just another musical tool. All scales are modes, and each mode has a particular sound that can be useful in a particular context. Composers use modes to create a different type of harmonic and melodic coloration than the standard major and minor scales (or modes), sometimes to great effect.

In fact, I'm going to show you a particular mode and a way to use it that will give you a very Debussian sound - it's something I use a lot when I'm just noodling around on the piano, and I love the sound of it. Rather than continue this thread, though, I'm going to start a new one - look for the "Instant Debussy" thread.