Amps...

[eibbor]

I posted here a while ago asking about a good keyboard for me to move on to. I've yet to buy it, but I'm pretty much set on a Roland Juno-G. I'm also considering an Alesis Fusion 6HD, but the price isn't very competitive around here. And I'm a bit scared of the interface... when a few reviews on it I read compared it to BMW's idrive, I wasn't exactly encouraged ;) Even so, I intend to give it a fair chance.

That's all beside the point, though. It's occurred to me that I might need something in the way of an amp... mainly for band practices and smaller gigs where there won't be a PA I can plug into.

What I've been doing so far, is plugging my old Casio into my Peavey Classic 30... a guitar amp, with tubes, no less. Volume has definitely not been a problem. Turning the reverb all the way down, and tweaking the eq to avoid the ice-picky highs have actually yielded some pretty decent results. Bass hasn't been a problem, either. However, I'm not entirely sure if this would be a good permanent solution.

Is there any reason I shouldn't be plugging into my Classic 30? Can the greater frequency range of the keyboard damage anything? Will higher volumes potentially kill the sound quality?

If I were to need a keyboard amp, for the purposes I mentioned above, I've looked into a few Peavey models... the "KB" series (very original nomenclature). How much power would be reasonable for small gigs and practices? My 30 watt Classic 30 goes damn loud... but tube amps usually do that. Solid state amps seem to require a lot more power to achieve similar results. That being the case, what should I be looking for? 40? 60? 100? Anything else (ideally cheap but sufficient) that I should look into?

I'd really rather not have to buy a keyboard amp, though. I won't ever use it at home, as I just hook up to my home theater receiver or headphones. Most gigs will likely be using some kind of a PA system, so I won't need it then, either. I'd rather not spend my hard earned money on something that will see such limited use, when I have something that does seem to work well enough.

Thanks :)

[Asho]

Using a guitar amp isnt a good idea. It will not only colour you tone (as amps do, remember why guitarists choose different amps, poweramps, etc) but it a guitar amp doesnt have the same frequency range, so essentially youre not really hearing an perfectly accurate replication of the sound you have at your fingers.

If you are planning to gig (of any kind), then i suggest that you do get a keyboard amp with a much larger wattage, because you can always turn it down. Its much better to have a powerful amp sitting on the low settings, than a weaker amp maxed out.

The bigger the better IMHO...if you have the funds.

I cant recommend a wattage since i always use a PA, even in practice.

[MrPillow]

If you dont need very much power, the 100wt Carvin amp, forgot the exact name, served me well until I sold it due to lack of power.

EDIT: I ran my Sh-201 through our guitarist Dual Recto once, and it sounded very well for synth leads, pads, etc., but nothing else.

[The J-Man]

It really depends on your budget, to be quite honest with you. Carvin does indeed make some pretty powerful amps...their most powerful is 1000 watts. I picked one of those up almost 2 years ago, and buying it directly from Carvin it ran me 800 bucks. Their 100 watt model runs almost 400.

I know the Juno G LOOKS good for the price, but let me tell you that there is no workstation out there in the Fusion's price range that can do the things that the Fusion can do. There is a huge amount of support for the Fusion, and new sounds are released from different sources all the time. I own a 8HD and I absolutely love it.

[Grey Loki]

To put it bluntly, if you choose the Juno G over the Fusion (Either 6HD or 8HD), I will slap you :P

The Fusion is such a powerful board it's almost untrue for the price - VA, PM, FM, PCM sampling, a stupid amount of patches on the board already, plus double that available on the Fusion forums.

Or you could get the Juno G, which you'll want to sell within a month, because IMO, it's no better than a Casio. If you -must- have a Juno of some sort, get a 106, not a D or G.

And IMO, the interface on the Fusion is one of the best i've ever used - i've tried out Korg's Triton range, and found the interface very confusing - the same (in part) for the Motif, and (of course, hehe) the Kurz K2600.

Plugging keys into a guitar amp is not very wise - it's great for quick practices, but you get a very lowfi sound from the amp, and the extended range of the keyboard can damage the driver of the amp over a period of time.

If you think about the frequency content of your average keyboard patch, it goes from right down in the bass (say, around 80Hz, although the fundamental of the lowest E on a keyboard/piano is something like 43.7Hz) all the way up to the 15k area, possibly even more.

A guitar is a much more narrow band, and guitar amplifiers are built to reflect this - you're just restricting yourself if you plug into anything but a keys amp. I remember a thread around here from, hmm, almost a year back I think, maybe more, about the viability of plugging keys into a bass amp - supposedly that's a 'better' solution, but the best one is just to pick up a nice keyboard amp, like something from the Roland Cube range.

Hope this helps :)

[MrPillow]

On top of that, if you have 88 keys the lowest A has a fundamental of 27.5hz :eek:


Not quite on topic, but somewhat relevant -

Didn't Van Halen play all his keyboard work with the OB through a Marshall halfstack?

[Grey Loki]

It's quite possible he did, but if he did, then it was an artistic choice, not a budgetary one.

That would make the low B on a 5 string bass guitar.. about 31Hz?

[MrPillow]

Yup, just under 31hz. An 88 key piano has a fequency range of 27.5 > 4186Hz, depending on tuning and voicing if it is acoustic. That technically would place a 61key synth within the freq range most guitar cabs are voiced for, ranging from +-80 > +-5000hz. You'd lose alot of overtones in the higher end, but it wouldnt be too bad.

[Omega Monkey]

Actually, losing those overtones it what really kills the sound quality. Because thats where most of the "sound" itself IS. Imagine taking a high end stereo, and wrapping the speakers in heavy blankets. Would that sound good? Hell no! And that would basically be the same effect. So unless you ALWAYS want to go for that Trent Reznor "I took all the treble out for that drugged out surreal sound" ALL THE TIME (and indeed he only uses it on some songs and only on certain parts of the mix), or unless you are ONLY using vintage "rock" keyboards (EP's, organs, clavinets, etc...), a guitar amp is a very poor choice for amplifying keyboards, especially modern ones.

Im going to guess from some of the things youve said that you are just starting out with keys, and you are probably very young as well (teens or early 20s I would say). So basically you dont know what you want or what you will need. Not that theres anything wrong with that. Everyone starts somewhere. So take it from someone who has been playing keyboards for about 20 years, starting with a cheap Yamaha PS, and having at this point about as many synths and keyboards as fingers. The "best" overall solution is to have a really nice stereo PA. That will give you the best sound vs durability compromise. I wouldnt advise using your "home theater" setup, especially if its the typical modern consumer level home theater "package" with the really tiny satellites and whatnot and maybe an 8" sub or something with a 70-100W receiver. A keyboard can easily "blow" the speakers on something like that. The most common reason is because the small satellite speakers dont tend to be good for the lower midrange, so you have to turn the whole thing up more to get the "same" volume. Then you end up blowing the sub or something. Not good. Now, I have 2 pairs of JBL 12" 3 ways from the 70s and a refrigerator sized custom sub cabinet with a 15" driver and Im running the whole thing with 2 different high powered amps. So I can get plenty loud if I want. And Im STILL really careful about volume levels with THAT.

But anyway, the PA is ideal because its stereo, you can get pretty good sound quality (depending on what you get), and its durable and portable (durable applying both to the exterior as well as the speakers). PA speakers are designed to get driven a bit harder than home audio stuff in general. So theyre better for the extreme dynamics of "raw" keyboard sounds (ie that havent been massaged in a studio). And you WILL want SOMETHING on stage with you just giving you your own sound if you ever want to play gigs (especially with a band). You dont want to rely on insufficient monitors, and consider the fact that the monitors will also likely have all the other instruments as well. Meanwhile, youre trying to get all your stage sound from one 12 or 15 inch speaker, while the guitarist has anywhere from 1 to 8 12" speakers, and the bassist has maybe a couple 10s and a 15, you have the onstage drum volume to deal with, and after all that, they're all still stealing "your" monitor. So having something with JUST your own keys in is pretty much essential.

If you cant get a PA due to budget restrictions or whatever (which would be strange because you can get PA's for pretty cheap), the next step lower would be a nice keyboard amp. But try to get one that you would be able to get a matching one at some point down the road (unless you just want to upgrade straight to a PA later).

[Maximus]

Well, i really like the sonic posibilities of the Fusion, its got amazing potential plus great support, the juno G didnt impressed me when i try'd it however it is a more mature and developed synth, but boring, unless you're looking for the roland sound, go for the Fusion

BTW Whats up omega, where you been man.

[Omega Monkey]

I've been kind of off the grid lately. I moved and I dont have my computer with me at the moment. Most of my stuff is in storage. So I can really only use the computer at the library.

But now I should be on more regularly (though not quite as much as before at least until I get my computer again).

[Grey Loki]

(The Juno G) is a more mature and developed synth, but boring, unless you're looking for the roland sound, go for the Fusion.

IMO, the Juno G/D is a kiddie 'synth'. The Fusion is much more developed in just about every aspect - the only thing I can think of off-hand that's 'better' about the Juno is the fact that it has a D-Beam controller, and the Fusion doesn't. However, the Fusion has four assignable pots, two switches, four pads, plus mod wheel, aftertouch, and all your other standard keyboard gubbins - and that's not even mentioning the sonic flexibility it has.

If I misunderstood your post, Maximus, I apologise.

[Staccato]

Just hijacking the thread for a question, would you go for a keyboard amp with 2x10" elements or one big 15"?

[Maximus]

IMO, the Juno G/D is a kiddie 'synth'. The Fusion is much more developed in just about every aspect - the only thing I can think of off-hand that's 'better' about the Juno is the fact that it has a D-Beam controller, and the Fusion doesn't. However, the Fusion has four assignable pots, two switches, four pads, plus mod wheel, aftertouch, and all your other standard keyboard gubbins - and that's not even mentioning the sonic flexibility it has.

If I misunderstood your post, Maximus, I apologise.

i see what you mean, i was trying to say that roland has the workflow, interface and panel layout down, if you know your way in a XP50 you'll feel at home with a juno G, perhaps 'Slicker' is the right adjetive, alesis imho is still developing its 'style', but yes its hands down more of a machine.

[Omega Monkey]

As far as driver setup, I would probably tend more towards 1x15 (only with a tweeter as well for the high end), unless the 2 10s are wired in stereo (preferrably with a tweeter for each side as well). The 15 will give you that low end extension for those intense bass notes (which are especially useful for any drum/percussion sounds, synth basses and leads, organs, and piano). But depending on your needs, stereo capability may trump low end volume, and if you get the right 10s (ie high quality, rugged ones) the loss of low end might not be a big deal.

And I would definitely choose a Fusion over any recent Juno. But I might choose a Fantom S or a Motif over the Fusion.

[Staccato]

As far as driver setup, I would probably tend more towards 1x15 (only with a tweeter as well for the high end), unless the 2 10s are wired in stereo (preferrably with a tweeter for each side as well). The 15 will give you that low end extension for those intense bass notes (which are especially useful for any drum/percussion sounds, synth basses and leads, organs, and piano). But depending on your needs, stereo capability may trump low end volume, and if you get the right 10s (ie high quality, rugged ones) the loss of low end might not be a big deal.

And I would definitely choose a Fusion over any recent Juno. But I might choose a Fantom S or a Motif over the Fusion.

Thanks! Yeah, it comes with a tweeter. But does 2 10s sitting next to each other in one speaker give a stereo effect, even though they are wired in stereo? And how much does a speaker loose in the high register without a tweeter?