Help a newb? Ambience

[pyrostasis]

Hi - im a guitarist and a member of the John Petrucci forum; this is my first post here.
I recently asked a question there about keyboards so i got pointed here.
Im trying to expand my recorded sound by introducing some Keyboard ideas into my songs.

My main influence is Porcupine Tree, and i want to learn how i can get that ambient, swirling keyboard sound that Richard Barbeiri uses on songs like 'Mother and Child Divided' and 'Start of Something Beautiful' but i don't know where to begin.

I also like to use more of an electronica/trance based sound - for which i use a Korg Microkorg. Perfect for that techno buzzsaw sound and its arpeggiator. My drummer owns a 61 key keyboard (can't think what make) which has a MIDI output. Someone told me that we could use that to run Reason 3.0 to create the ambient sounds we want. Is this right and if so, how can we do it?

Thanks

[Omega Monkey]

Your first step is to stop listening to a completely derivative band like PT and start listening to some good stuff, like for instance Tangerine Dream or Massive Attack.

If you are trying to sound like PT, you will be copying a copy, and the result is more and more degraded and less and less fresh with each layer of "derivativeness" that you filter through. So its best to go straight to the source of the ideas and maybe use later "(de)generations" just as a guide as to what might be possible.

To put it another way, taking from PT would be like eating someone elses vomit. Then if you someone copied you down the line, they would be eating your vomit of PTs vomit. Which is really quite disgusting if you think about it.

[Grey Loki]

Which is really quite disgusting if you think about it.

I agree with Omega Monkey.

[pyrostasis]

Your first step is to stop listening to a completely derivative band like PT and start listening to some good stuff, like for instance Tangerine Dream or Massive Attack.

If you are trying to sound like PT, you will be copying a copy, and the result is more and more degraded and less and less fresh with each layer of "derivativeness" that you filter through. So its best to go straight to the source of the ideas and maybe use later "(de)generations" just as a guide as to what might be possible.

To put it another way, taking from PT would be like eating someone elses vomit. Then if you someone copied you down the line, they would be eating your vomit of PTs vomit. Which is really quite disgusting if you think about it.


im sorry - i thought i asked for technical advice not a lecture on bands you don't think i should listen to. For your information i happen to be a fan of Tangerine Dream but i don't just limit myself to them. I like a lot of music but i didn't come on here to list whats on my ipod for critisism from a bunch on musical snobs. I'll take my question somewhere else thank you.

BTW - my band sounds nothing like PT. You can be influenced by someone without copying them.

[mdsonic]

First off..........Good for you standing your ground, often people think that because they like or dis-like a band they need to inpose their views and offer (or tell) others how or what to listen to. I personaly love PT and have been a fan for years, Tangerine Dream as well and others and I can listen to each one as well as appreciate each one for what they do.....Anyway if you have Reason you can certinaly use the 61 key keyboard to control the reason synths, you can also use the Micro Korg as an additional sound source with the right midi connections. Roland has the new SH201 synth that actualy has patches created by Richard as well as Jordan, I have it and have used some of their patches as starting points for my music which is a combination of King Crimson and Porcupine Tree's more ambient work. Only difference is I use Ableton live with a Motif and a ton of softsynths. The songs you listed before are largly a V-synth and Virus used to create the sounds I think your refering to...I may be wrong....

Good luck

[keys76]

Your first step is to stop listening to a completely derivative band like PT and start listening to some good stuff, like for instance Tangerine Dream or Massive Attack.

If you are trying to sound like PT, you will be copying a copy, and the result is more and more degraded and less and less fresh with each layer of "derivativeness" that you filter through. So its best to go straight to the source of the ideas and maybe use later "(de)generations" just as a guide as to what might be possible.

To put it another way, taking from PT would be like eating someone elses vomit. Then if you someone copied you down the line, they would be eating your vomit of PTs vomit. Which is really quite disgusting if you think about it.

Let's keep it friendly and OM: PLEASE SHOW SOME RESPECT...
Amen!

[FRETPICK]

Try these.Nice to see you over this side.

http://www.equinoxsounds.com/product-pages/future-chill.htm

I's trying to think of the same things although I've never heard PT.

[Spacehog]

While I'd agree that Porcupine Tree aren't up to all that much, they're certainly way more interesting musically than the tedious drivel that is Tangerine Dream! And that kind of response, OM, is exactly why a lot of people get put off forums quickly. Utterly uncalled for. There is almost no such thing as true originality in music these days, just accept that everything is derivative, but the true talent lies in taking those derivations and melding the influences together into something that represents you as a musician.

[pyrostasis]

First off..........Good for you standing your ground, often people think that because they like or dis-like a band they need to inpose their views and offer (or tell) others how or what to listen to. I personaly love PT and have been a fan for years, Tangerine Dream as well and others and I can listen to each one as well as appreciate each one for what they do.....Anyway if you have Reason you can certinaly use the 61 key keyboard to control the reason synths, you can also use the Micro Korg as an additional sound source with the right midi connections. Roland has the new SH201 synth that actualy has patches created by Richard as well as Jordan, I have it and have used some of their patches as starting points for my music which is a combination of King Crimson and Porcupine Tree's more ambient work. Only difference is I use Ableton live with a Motif and a ton of softsynths. The songs you listed before are largly a V-synth and Virus used to create the sounds I think your refering to...I may be wrong....

Good luck


thats loads of help! thanks a lot dude. Thanks to Fretpick as well - didn't know you were a member here - thanks for showing that sample cd!

[Everlasting_Rain]

While I'd agree that Porcupine Tree aren't up to all that much, they're certainly way more interesting musically than the tedious drivel that is Tangerine Dream! And that kind of response, OM, is exactly why a lot of people get put off forums quickly. Utterly uncalled for. There is almost no such thing as true originality in music these days, just accept that everything is derivative, but the true talent lies in taking those derivations and melding the influences together into something that represents you as a musician.

I haven't heard anything from Tangerine Dream, but I agree on everything else. Now I gotta go and listen to TD and see if I should open membership in an 'I agree with Spacehog'.

I like PT quite a lot, specially In Absentia, and watched their latest DVD which I find amazing. I think they have a GREAT live show, which is really a big point for me when I get to consider a band. I love when Barbieri holds down with tape a key on his V-Synth. Maybe it could have been programmed (even though I don't know the V-Synth to assure that), but why? It's just another way to do it.

[Analogkid]

Your first step is to stop listening to a completely derivative band like PT and start listening to some good stuff, like for instance Tangerine Dream or Massive Attack.

If you are trying to sound like PT, you will be copying a copy, and the result is more and more degraded and less and less fresh with each layer of "derivativeness" that you filter through. So its best to go straight to the source of the ideas and maybe use later "(de)generations" just as a guide as to what might be possible.

To put it another way, taking from PT would be like eating someone elses vomit. Then if you someone copied you down the line, they would be eating your vomit of PTs vomit. Which is really quite disgusting if you think about it.

Not only am I a member of the I totally disagree with Omega Monkey club, im also the president!

Thank you for your support!:rolleyes:

[Omega Monkey]

Eh.

If you base your art on that of mediocre hacks its incredibly difficult for you to rise above that level of quality. Or so I'd imagine. Personally I prefer to go to the original source of creativity wherever possible.

And to whoever said all music is derivative, well, I suppose in a way thats true but its a very blinkered and overly simplified take on the creative process. It denies the fact (yes, the fact) that all music is not as derivative as all other music. Would you say Yes are as derivative as Blink 182 for example? If you have ears, probably not. Likewise, its silly to go to a later band with a more degraded and inferior form of creativity (if there is any at all). Why copy from Starcastle when you can just go straight to Yes and get the ideas in their purest form?

Good art is not made by copying the copiers. If you really dont have your own ideas, at least steal from the best.

[pyrostasis]

Eh.

If you base your art on that of mediocre hacks its incredibly difficult for you to rise above that level of quality. Or so I'd imagine. Personally I prefer to go to the original source of creativity wherever possible.



i agree with you about copying bands. But you haven't even heard my band. We sound NOTHING like porcupine tree. They are one of DOZENS of influences we have. And until i completely reinvent music as we know it, yes - i will produce music that is bound to sound like something else. Same for ever other band on the planet.

In other words - thank you to everyone who actually answered my original question. Very useful stuff.

[mdsonic]

I was wondering where can we hear Omega's "original" music......I'm very interested in this....I admit I'm not the most original but then again even DT sounds a bit like their influences and I'm sure their influences sound like someone before them.........We should all appreciate each others work and not be so critical.......

"One man's garbage can is another man's drum"

[Syrinx]

To the original poster:
To get back to your question. If you want to add more ambient spacey sounds to your music, then you need a Pad machine. By this I mean a synth/keyboard capable of making nice sounding pads. There are many hardware and software choices. Even in the realm of FREE VST software synths, there are too many options than I can count. I'm sure there are people more familiar with hardware can give you more in depth perspective on which synths are best for Pad sounds.

For free VST synths I can say that the following are more than decent to generate this kind of sound. If you are not familiar with how to make them work, keep asking, and I'll do my best.

(1) LinPlug's Free Alpha 3 at: http://www.linplug.com/Download/download.htm
(2) H.G. Fortune's Pad monster STS-26: http://www.hgf-synthesizer.de/
(3) Majken's Chimera: http://www.majken.se/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=3&Itemid=9
(4) Krakli's Cygnus: http://www.krakli.co.uk/cygnus.htm
(5) Ugo's Texture: http://www.ugoaudio.com/
(6) Green Oak's Crystal: http://www.greenoak.com/crystal/
(7) Crazy Diamonds: http://rumpelrausch.ru.funpic.de/plugins_e.html
The name is because it nails the famous string sound in the intro of Crazy Diamonds by Pink Floyd.
(8) Superwave P8: http://home.btconnect.com/christopherg/main.htm


You'll need a VST host to run any of these VSTs, there are many good free ones, my vote goes to energyXT from www.xt-hq.com

Good luck.

[Syrinx]

I just remembered, isn't Richard Barbeiri using a Roland V-synth? He has a couple of video demos on the V-synth product page at Rolandus.com
If you can afford it, get it or even wait for the new V-synth GT. But if all you want is a moving pad sound, I think the software option is the cheapest.

Best.

[pyrostasis]

I just remembered, isn't Richard Barbeiri using a Roland V-synth? He has a couple of video demos on the V-synth product page at Rolandus.com
If you can afford it, get it or even wait for the new V-synth GT. But if all you want is a moving pad sound, I think the software option is the cheapest.

Best.

thanks for the links man. Again - this is something im on completely unstable ground for - but can i use Reason as a VST host?

I probably wont be splashing out on the V-synth anytime soon as a) it costs and b) im NOT a keyboard player. Just a guitarist dabbling in other things. Maybe in a few years i could splash out on something fancy like that but we'll see.

Thanks again though

[OctavarIan]

at least steal from the best.

That's entirely subjective.

[mdsonic]

RICHARDS LIVE RIG CONSISTS OF THE FOLLOWING SO IF YOUR LOOKING TO EMULATE HIM OR DEVELOPE A STYLE AND SOUND WITH HIM AS A REFERENCE POINT.........
CHECK OUT HIS WEB PAGE FOR MORE GEAR RELATED DETAILS.......



Prophet 5 and/or Pro 53
Access Virus Indigo 2
Roland V synth
Ensoniq VFX
Roland JV 2080
Alesis Nano Piano
M-Audio Radium 49 midi keyboard

Boss VF1 multi FX
Yamaha SPX90 mk 2
Furman Power Conditioner
Line 6 Distortion Modeller
Line 6 Delay Modeller

Mackie 12 channel mixer
Behringer 6 channel sub mixer
G4 Power Book

Bang and Olafson headphone monitoring

[Syrinx]

thanks for the links man. Again - this is something im on completely unstable ground for - but can i use Reason as a VST host?

I probably wont be splashing out on the V-synth anytime soon as a) it costs and b) im NOT a keyboard player. Just a guitarist dabbling in other things. Maybe in a few years i could splash out on something fancy like that but we'll see.

Thanks again though

Reason is kind of its own universe, so I guess you can't use it as a host. But I bet you could use one of its synths or refills to get decent pad sounds.
Otherwise get energyXT free demo, or buy Live/Sonar/Cubase/etc.
There are very simplistic hosts that would let you use only one VST at a time, they are free. My vote goes to Cantabile http://www.toptensoftware.com/ or MiniHost http://www.tobybear.de/

Good luck.

[pyrostasis]

Reason is kind of its own universe, so I guess you can't use it as a host. But I bet you could use one of its synths or refills to get decent pad sounds.
Otherwise get energyXT free demo, or buy Live/Sonar/Cubase/etc.
There are very simplistic hosts that would let you use only one VST at a time, they are free. My vote goes to Cantabile http://www.toptensoftware.com/ or MiniHost http://www.tobybear.de/

Good luck.


awesome - you're a legend mate!

[eviani]

As someone earlier in this thread mentioned, the Roland V-Synth, Roland SH201, Access Virus...the Korg RADIAS had some really cool sounds in it but I haven't used it that much to be able to tell you if it fits that stuff...the keyboardist from porcupine tree seems to use mainly midi controllers hooked to his mac running what I'm assuming is Reason 3.0 and some soft synths...the rest of his sounds coming from a Fantom X6 (or XA I can't tell) and some other keyboard. I think that if you have a laptop that won't crash on you, the power of Reason combined with a good midi controller is priceless...

[Grey Loki]

In addition to those two VST hosts, you might also want to check out Green Oak's Crystal VST Host - very, very, very good, and totally free!

http://www.greenoak.com/crystal/download.html

Enjoy ;)

[nanaman]

If you base your art on that of mediocre hacks its incredibly difficult for you to rise above that level of quality. Or so I'd imagine. Personally I prefer to go to the original source of creativity wherever possible.

That's bull, just because some other "great" has gotten their influences from some other band that kind of invented some kind of style doesn't mean YOU should get your influences from their influences, and that your music would turn out more "mediocre" or whatever if you didn't, that's just ridiculous. Just because some other musician you like has gotten their influences from someone else doesn't mean you will like them as much and they won't maybe please you as much musically/emotionally/whatever than the musician in question that you like. In the end it all comes down to the composer himself, a guy who likes TD might be making crappier music than one that likes PT/whatever. And as always, everyone is different, you like different kinds of music, that's just how it is.

And yeah, in this case, this guy might have some great ideas he wanted to put into his work, but he needed the TOOLS for his ideas and that's why he came here to ask.

[Omega Monkey]

So, he should like music more to your tastes? Then he is being derivative of who he truly is by copying you...I don't know, maybe I shouldn't listen to Dream Theater and just listen to Yes, Rush, Metallica, Dregs...after all, I don't want to have a watered down prog listening experience...now I'm all concerened about what I listen to! Thanks a lot!

Uhm, I didnt say any of those things. I never even implied he should just like "what I like", only that he should try to avoid being influenced by already derivative music, because its like inbreeding that way. Thats the problem with a lot of the current symphonic rock bands. All they listen to is Yes/Genesis/etc... so their music has a very narrow focus, but the guys in those earlier bands were listening to all kinds of stuff, and thats why they had such innovative sounds. Basically the more "generations" there are in a single "line" (ie symphonic rock), the better each successive band has to be in order to be any good at all. But if you mix different "lines" (say symphonic rock and metal, or jazz and rock, etc...) you have a lot more leeway to create something inventive and worthwhile.

As far as the list of bands you mentioned, all of those bands are quite original compared to average (especially Yes), so Im not sure why you even brought them up. Those are basically "first generation" bands, as in they werent just copying something that came before, they really created their own unique thing, which is what art is all about at its core.

And regarding a "watered down prog listening experience", well thats what you will get if you listen to stuff like PT (who arent even prog to begin with), or bands that just try to ape the classics of the past (bands like Glass Hammer, etc...).

That's entirely subjective.

Its partially subjective. If I reworded it to say "at least steal from the most original/pure source" then it would be almost entirely objective.

[Syrinx]

In addition to those two VST hosts, you might also want to check out Green Oak's Crystal VST Host - very, very, very good, and totally free!

http://www.greenoak.com/crystal/download.html

Enjoy ;)

Crystal is a VST host? Never heard of that. Let me just be clear about what I mean by a VST host, it's an application (actual .exe file in windows) that serves like the middle man between your VST synths (.dll files) and your midi/audio interface. I strongly doubt that Crytal could play such a role. But as a Synth, man, it's awesome. Even for a beginner, just choose two patches and hit "Breed", it's a randomize button, giving mostly nice results. It's particularly nice for generating pads because of all the modulation options.

Actually, this is from the GreenOak.com Crystal website under "About":
"Crystal is a plugin, which means it runs within a host, such as Cubase, Orion, Logic, Fruity Loops, etc."


Best.