Kurzweil - Not producing synths anymore?

[bbradford]

I'm hoping this is a rumor.... I went to Guitar Center hoping to test out a Kurzweil, none to be found. The salesman told me they don't carry Kurzweil anymore, that Kurweil was not making the Synth Line anymore, just piano's ... Is this true ??

B

[Kurzweilfreak]

They're full of shit. I went to GC this past Saturday and told him that I worked for a Kurzweil dealer, and he started trying to tell me how they had so many problems with Kurzweil boards (which was probably true, but what they won't tell you is that most of the problems are GC's fault) and that Guitar Center stopped carrying them, which also isn't true. Guitar Center's dealer status was taken away, not the other way around.

[Georges]

Believe me, GC is like any typical firm: "there is never anything wrong in OUR company". There were conflicts between GC and Kurzweil, probably because GC demanded for impossible prices at Kurzweil. Such stores should be closed, honestly. Music Store in Germany is the same sh**. They destroy the market ...

[Tusker]

As I understand it, GC weren't moving enough K units, because the sales people were not educated enough, generally. In that environment, it's impossble to communicate the valid differences between a $700 keyboard and a $2000 one. In fact the bias is toward simple instruments with "impressive" presets. So K dropped them after attempting to address the education issue. I can't blame them.

That was some time ago. Today there is some uncertainty at K due to the recent Samick acquisition of Young Chang. There is discussion of this uncertainty at sonikmatter. What the future holds is anybody's guess. Speaking as an outsider who studies industries, we are watching a classic industry consolidation, where the ability to recoup R&D through scale is the key to profitability. This environment usually has two winning strategies and a losing strategy for small companies:

Loser - Continues to do what you are doing, and try to make more mass market products at roughly the same scale.

Winner - Partner with a large company that has aspirations to completely dominate (decimate) the market. Give them the know-how, they provide the $$$.

Winner - Move upstream and become an R&D outfit. Package and sell off your technologies to the mass marketers. Brand through the mass-market product ("intel inside"). This requies that you have enough of a R&D head-start.

I hope they make the right decisions. These are among the best musical instruments in the world.

Best,

Jerry

[maJ estY]

The Kurzman on the Musikmesse I talked to last month spoke of the K3000 row which will be released in a couple of years...

[Over The Edge]

Uh, actually I don't know about that just yet.



FL
www.franklucas.net

[Kirby]

Believe me, GC is like any typical firm: "there is never anything wrong in OUR company". There were conflicts between GC and Kurzweil, probably because GC demanded for impossible prices at Kurzweil. Such stores should be closed, honestly. Music Store in Germany is the same sh**. They destroy the market ...

Music Store is a crap store. I wouldn't buy anthing there. The Synth section looks somewhat umprofessional. There are several dealrs in Germany with very low prices, but music Store is a sotry for itself. They often buy stuff from deceased companies and sell it. mentioning some fantasy original prices. The price war in Germany is very hard.

Also many of thier ads are not correct, for example they had a masterkeyboard for 599€. The ad said it would have hammer meachnism, but when i played it, there was no hammer feel. Just cheap weighted keys.

A very symphatic German Dealer is Thomann. I don't want to make ad for them, but when i was in the store, it had a nice atmosphere, not so cold. The personal was also very helpful.

[Kurzweilfreak]

The GC thing had many more variables than that, which would be boring to get into here yet again.

As for Samick aquiring Young Chang, there is a lot of confusion about that. First off, they didn't aquire Young Chang; they bought 46% shares in the company. Samick is a strong company; I believe they are the world's largest guitar manufacturer. They now own a portion of the world's largest piano manufactuer (Young Chang). So they are pretty much dominating the Korean market in pianos (about 90%) and a large portion of the US market as well, and have the resources to really let Kurzweil do their thing and create some innovative, lurcrative products.

Despite recent events and layoffs, all is not as bad as it seems. Kurzweil is in the process of relocating all of their staff to a central base of operations to become more efficient and solve a lot of past problems. This is a good thing, and probably should have been done long ago. It's hard to run a company smoothly when your various divisions are spread across the country.

I am optimistic about the future of Kurzweil; I don't see any reason not to be. The only people that aren't are the ones that only hear the rumor mill churning and help to spurn it along. Bad rumors and lack of true inside knowledge by those who start them has been one of the biggest problems for Kurzweil on the consumer front for years. There's always some idiot saying "I heard Kurzweil was going out of business..." :roll:

I do believe Kurzweil will begin an incline in actually becoming what they have the potential to be. I also believe they will accomplish this through a combination of Jerry's two "winning" scenarios. :D

[maJ estY]

The situation here in Germany needs to "calm down". Kurzweil was nowhere available for a couple of years and they're still trying to promote themselves. Look, they even didn't have an own homepage until a few weeks...
I don't know as many music stores as you, but what I really can propose is www.musik-service.de - I doubt that their personal is familiar with Kurz product and in my opinion, they are also not really nice in general (haven't been there for years though), but the prices are really OK.

[Over The Edge]

They are relocating, as Brett mentioned, to California in the
next 4 to 5 months. They are experiencing a VERY rough time
right now..with something in the range of 14 to 18 of their top engineers
laid off if I'm not mistaken. This SADDENS ME DEEPLY as I've been a
Kurzweil user now for over a decade. I can only hope that they can maintain the extremely high standards they've set in the industry. That is why I wonder about the status of their new powerhouse VA-1's release.
I WAS in line to receive one really soon but now I'm not so sure.

I hope that in the end, everything works out for a company that,
in my opinion, was in the business of creating musical miracles
and for a very long time was all alone at the top of the mountain.

:cry:


FL
www.franklucas.net

[Kurzweilfreak]

What generally isn't understood is that it wasn't so much of a layoff as it was a "hey, we're moving to a central location, anyone who wants to relocate, let's go, anyone who doesn't, don't."

As for the status of the VA-1, no one is really sure. I'm hoping they ship them, as it would be the first product showcasing their new chipset. I really don't see how they couldn't ship it, being that they've announced it so vocally, it appears on their website, and they've shown them at a few trade shows now. And there appears to be people who want them.

Me included. :wink:

[Rexx]

Good news, Kurzweil haven't abandoned their synth line.
Unfortunately they have let go of many top notch personel in the last few years which is alarming.

Hopefully now that Samick has acquired Young Chang they'll realize that the Kurweil R&D innovators are needed for future Pro Audio synth products.

[Georges]

First off, they didn't aquire Young Chang; they bought 46% shares in the company.

There's no practical difference; with 46% they have easily control over the company and moreover, they can put someone into the B.O.D.

What generally isn't understood is that it wasn't so much of a layoff as it was a "hey, we're moving to a central location, anyone who wants to relocate, let's go, anyone who doesn't, don't."

Easy to talk like that if you are not concerned. After all, you are supposed to work for living, NOT to live for work. I would not move for my employer, unless I did not have any reason anymore to stay where I am ...

[bbradford]

Cool guys, thanks for the information ....

B

[maJ estY]

As for the status of the VA-1, no one is really sure.

All I can say is that I've already played on one and they had three of four of them on the Musikmesse, I cannot imagine that it won't be shipped. It seems to be almost finished.

[Over The Edge]

It was not even close to completion.



FL
www.franklucas.net

[Kurzweilfreak]

Easy to talk like that if you are not concerned. After all, you are supposed to work for living, NOT to live for work. I would not move for my employer, unless I did not have any reason anymore to stay where I am ...

If you had a specialized job such as synthesizer design or R&D where there aren't a whole ton of companies just around the corner and instead are only a few big ones who have central locations.... you'd probably move to be employed where the employment was. If you were a quantum physicist, I doubt you'd be complaining because there's no particle accelerator close by. :roll:

[Georges]

If you had a specialized job [...] you'd probably move to be employed where the employment was.

That depends on your priorities. Some do not have their job as their main priority, in particular when they have a family. Moreover, whether you are a synthesizer designer or a synthesizer R&D man, there is always a possibility to work in another domain as a designer or an IT specialist. Only because it's related to music technology does not mean that you are completely limited to that domain - it's actually a matter of character AND of what you want. So I can very well understand the people who said "no" to Kurzweil when they decided to move, even though they certainly did not want it to happen. Perfect mobility is easy when you are young and when you have nothing to lose - for the rest, it's always crucial and difficult decision.

I kinda doubt though that a centralized Kurzweil division will be the solution to Kurzweil's potential problems. Problems used to come for a major part from the outside (i.e. YC, lack of coordination between the two Kurzweil offices in Europe and USA), not really from inside of the American company.

[Over The Edge]

A more pressing issue to consider is that many of the engineers
chiefly responsible for the revolutionary technology in
the Kurz. products professional musicians have all come
to love...


...are gone.

You can centralize affairs all you want. That core created some
amazing things that would be awfully tough follow up.


FL
www.franklucas.net

[Tusker]

Yup, I agree. I think you nailed the issue, Frank. Re-organizing R&D sounds very simple, but you are really re-organizing your future.

We live in an age when amost anyone can code. But the vision thing, the ability to translate music ideas into code and vice versa ... that takes experience, vision, commitment to music.

I'd be really thrilled to see these guys working on a contract basis with different manufacturers (including Kurzweil) rather than having the industry lose them.

Jerry

[Kamin]

as to the whole k3000 thing...maybe its just me, but wouldnt the next logical step be a k2700? i mean 2500, 2600, 2700. that would seem right..but then they did go from 2000 to 2500 i think...not that this matters, but its kinda funny.

[Spacehog]

K2700 would suggest a small incremental step, like the K2600 was from the K2500... K3000 would suggest a major step up, almost a whole new synth... and that's what we're all hoping for (who knows, by the time it's released I might actually be able to afford one :))

Martin

[Axe2Grind]

If Kurzweil did announce a complete end of production of synths, what would Jordan do ?. Would he continue to use his K2600 and just add racks to his rig or would he go with Korg or Yamaha because of their future developments? ... I bet it would be bye bye Kurzweil and then you'll see a flood of K series instruments on ebay for cheap.

I hope they never stop their synth developments, they are without doubt the PRS of the keyboard world.

[Omega Monkey]

If Kurzweil did announce a complete end of production of synths, what would Jordan do ?. Would he continue to use his K2600 and just add racks to his rig or would he go with Korg or Yamaha because of their future developments? ... I bet it would be bye bye Kurzweil and then you'll see a flood of K series instruments on ebay for cheap.

Why? Just because they dont make any new synths doesnt change the capabilities of what the current ones can do. If the K2600 suits most of Jordans needs now, I dont see why that would change just because they werent making new synths. I mean, they havent really put out a new synth in what, 3 or 4 years?

And anyone who would sell their synth just because its not what Jordan uses anymore is an idiot. As long as they keep up their tech support, I dont see any reason why them not making new synths would have any effect on the synths already out there.

[Arkaitz]

I completely agree with you Omega Monkey.

I bought my K2600XS loaded 8 months ago and even I've read all the manuals, some parts more than several times, I have still done almost nothing with it. Just spent many days in programming a simple setup in order to get a little bit deeper in its synthesis technology.

I believe that requires a lot of experience and dedication to control completely a synthesizer and you might not require a newer one in several years; perhaps never.

Its also true that there will always appear new and interesting stuff, such as synths that include a USB port, mLan and many other technological improvements, but this is something that never will stop. For example they might provide you facilities when connecting to a PC/MAC or other synths, but those who provide MIDI/SCSI and othe interfaces, even if they're slower and more restricted ones, always will provide a way to treat your stuff with other equipments. This could be applied to synthesis engine, etc.

Arkaitz.

[Axe2Grind]

Well if Kurzweil did stop making synths completely, I'm certain that Jordan would want to be playing an instrument which had future support, also he does get payed to play Kurzweils as an endorser, I don't think he'd be an endorser of a discontinued product, purely for the fact that if it breaks down and parts are required etc amongst other reasons.

I was not implying that people would sell there Kurz's because of Jordan not playing them (That IS pathetic), you'd see a lot for sale because in my experience there's a lot of keyboardists / musicians who do not want a discontinued product, they want something with future developments and upgrades, sensible people will hang on to them, but the nature of a lot of keyboardists is to have the latest and greatest, I bet there's loads who want to drop there Triton classic's & Studio's for the Extreme, They'd sell them (a. for the latest all singing dancing features and (b. to finance the purchase. I have been there countless of times in the past to my regret, that's why I am now strictly a Virtual Instrument guy, They're a lot cheaper, upgrades are a software update away (sometimes for free) and they are more flexible and powerful, I don't play live so have not got the worry of crashing etc (not that I have ever had a crash whilst using my rig). Anyways that was the point I was trying to make, alright !... :D

I doubt Kurzweil would support any product after they have discontinued the range but you would still have individual's with dedicated sites.

By the way, there are lots of Keyboardists out there who base there purchasing on what their heroes play. Most of the gear posts here are Kurzweil related far out weighing other brands, and I think that it's partly in a small way, down to Jordan playing Kurzweil in some ways for certain people (not all -)and that's why Kurzweil pays him to be an endorser. I put my hand up and say that I bought a Wavestation because Jan Hammer was playing and endorsing the wavestation at the time and I wanted the sounds he had, which is perfectly exceptable....now I am rambling so I'll shut up !!!.... :roll: and this is all my own opinion which I am entitled too.

[Spacehog]

E-MU stopped making keyboards the back end of last year / earlier this... does this mean that the users have stopped playing them? No, far from it, the market for used boards and sound ROMs is hotter than ever! I know I am not alone in wanting to collect all 18 sound ROMs (I have 12) and a couple more boards to put 'em in. 'sjust that finding them is a problem.

So I don't suppose for a moment that people will stop using Kurzweils if they were to be discontinued (which I don't see happening in the near future!). There's a vast market for patches and stuff out there... to use one of the most famous examples, look at how many patches etc are available for the (LONG discontinued) Yamaha DX7!

I for one will not be buying a Triton Extreme, cos I played one the other day and it had the same horrid key action (I don't have room for a 88-note board). The feel of a board is very important to me, I can create my sounds via soft synths if I need to (I have no qualms about taking a PC out live, once I get a lighter display than my 21" CRT!). So far, out of the boards I've tried, only the Rolands, the Kurzweil KME61 (which was very nice!) and the Nord Electro had the feel that I'm comfortable with (not been able to try a K2661 yet!). Once my house sale completes, I'll have a load of spare cash to buy some more gear, I'll have to see what's available then (currently 2-3 months away).

Hmm, I'm sure there was a point somewhere in there ;-)

Martin

[Axe2Grind]

Please don't turn what I am saying into a generalisation, I am talking about Kurzweil and the fact that if they discontinue their synth line, would Jordan still support Kurzweil and my own personal thoughts on it.

We all know there is a big second hand market in the keyboard industry but there are also a large chunk of keyboardists who want the latest model and go out to get it, sacrificing there current model which makes that second hand market boom. I was refering to my own experiences with gear buying and saying that I was not alone wanting the next best thing and in a lot of cases, this is a natural thing for a keyboardist to do, which is staying on top of technology.

I hope this clears things up a little, I was not pointing fingers at anybody, just personal thoughts and opinions, and things I've noticed since being a keyboardist over the many years I have been one.

[Rexx]

The future of Kurzweil is anyone's guess at this point.

David Fox made a pretty harsh assessment of Kurzweil's new direction with the recent Samick purchase and massive layoffs to the R&D over on Sonik. :shock:

We've all been watching an exodus of key Kurzweil staff for a couple of years now.

IMHO I think Jordan will continue using his trusty K2600XS's, maybe he'll just have to have a few more backup units. It's not about endorsement, it's about letting the music flow.

I mean what possible synth could replace the K2600XS unless Kurzweil made it? It's a real instrument of expression that those which never owned one could never comprehend. :o

I just hope Kurzweil still has a future in pro audio synth workstations and studio processors. Brett or anyone "in the "know" shedd some light on the subject plz. :arrow:

[Kurzweilfreak]

Review the thread that David Fox started at Sonikmatter again. Jeff tore him up a new one for it. *lol*

As always, I'm optimistic and enthusiastic about the future of Kurzweil. :D

[Rexx]

Thx, goes to read todays entries at sonik :arrow: