The way you play...

[NiceKidDoRoxx]

Have you ever use the keyboard's arpeggiator? I often use it (record / live). But I always get negative comment from my bandmate (and also another people). I'm a type of keyboard player who will do aything, and I dont care how I play it, I just want to give the best for the crowd, that's it.

I play percussive thing to with my keys (techno-ish effect, hits, etc) that I get negative comments too, "should leave it to drummer" they said.

:frown: How about you all...?

[Luca_Capozzi]

If it sounds good, why not? :)

Luca

[Alkemist]

How do you use arpeggios live? I've always wanted to lay out some cool beats to jazz up something, but I'm afraid that the tempo will throw, our real drummer vs. what I initially programmed.

I know there probably might be some drummer who can honestly say, that if he starts the song at 121 BPM he'll finish it at 121BPM, but I don't think that's the case for most us, is it?

And as for it being okay or not, I think it's perfectly fine. I would be more worried if you had to rely on the arpeggiator for difficult runs and guitar-unison stuff, because that might be concidered cheating of some kind. I agree with Axiom - if it sounds great, why shouldn't you do it?

[NiceKidDoRoxx]

I just play it, and sometimes it will little out of sync, but it still ok imho. I ask my drummer to use metronome too :wink:

And as for it being okay or not, I think it's perfectly fine. I would be more worried if you had to rely on the arpeggiator for difficult runs and guitar-unison stuff, because that might be concidered cheating of some kind. I agree with Axiom - if it sounds great, why shouldn't you do it?

Cheating? When a riffs is 1/32 in 180, I'll use obviously use the arpeggiator :biggrin:

I willd do anything to achieve the sound I need :smile:

[Staccato]

The most important thing is that it sounds good.. but when relying on the arpeggiator for difficult passages, you will never practice them enough.. and that is what I´m looking for.. developing myself, both techniqually and musically! So give it a bit thinking.

[Alkemist]

To be honest with you, I've never understood drummers who use metronomes. I.. I don't know how to explain this view, its just always struck me as something very silly to do - in the end the drummer is the metronome in the band. And if he has to rely on a metronome.. Well, it just doesn't feel right.

I've always found that an excellent drummer will be able to play a song without any unnecessary metric modulations while still pertaining the breathing of a live player.

And 1/32nd riffs at 184 BPM seem very unlikely, unmusical, unnecessary, and certainly short and rare enough to try to play yourself. It's not the speed of the riff that makes it hard - there are plenty of incredibly fast passages that are easy to learn and plenty of beatifully slow ones that are impossible to master.

Just out of curiosity, I'd very much like to hear an example of a 1/32nd keyboard riff at anywhere near 184BPM. I know I may sound like I'm contradicting myself, but the question of using or not using arpeggiators is one of great intrigue and discussion. Much like making your keyboard parts MIDI and polishing them until they're perfect on the screen of a computer versus playing in hundreds of takes.

[Athox]

I'm not a drummer, but if I know a song good enough, I can tell if it's 1-2 beats per minute faster or slower than it should be. And it's driving me nuts. Ie, Budokan, Instrumedley, stars off fine with the bass riff, and then the guitar comes in and the beat is slowed down a tiny bit. And also later in the same medley... somewhere, somehow, portnoy managed to start too fast. I think maybe paradigm shift-riff.

So to cut a long story short, I would hate it if I had a drummer that didn't "feel" the rhythm, so to speak. :tongue:

[NiceKidDoRoxx]

There are some comments :

a little out of sync = human (and it's acceptable),
perfect (100%) in sync is robotic

:redface:

Maybe in rock music, a little out of sync would be nice. It's kinda give different color for the song. Like a gradually slowed down outro drums, etc. and I like it :smile:

But in dance / electronic music, people tend to hear 100% on fixed tempo. :rolleyes: And arpeggiator is a powerful tools for "instant" music too

@ Alkemist : that 1/32 - 180, I said that as a joke, really. I never heard such passage too :biggrin:

[ChrisMcCoy]

If it sounds good, why not? :)

Luca

I agree.

I once used it to cover "She's A Beauty" by the Tubes on my RS-9.

:)

[jeebustrain]

it really depends on what kind of music you're performing. Outside of the prog metal and classic rock world, sequences, arps, and click tracks are pretty much a part of life. Especially if you're in the realm of mainstream pop. You have sequenced backing tracks and other things that require rock solid tempos.

I used arps all the time when I was playing keys in my band... Of course, it's an industrial/electronica band, so everything was tempo synced. Our old drummer played with a click, and now that I'm playing drums, I play with a click, too.

This song's chorus has a fairly dense arp pattern @ 170bpm
http://www.polariswindow.com/other/Glitchfactor%20-%20Sun.MP3

when I would play it live, I would do chordal variations in the verse, and during the chorus, my right hand would play a synth lead line along the vocal melody (to thicken it up). Also, during the verses, I played pads over the arp pattern with right hand, and it was pretty much impossible (to my feeble left hand, at least)

On this song in the chorus, I'm doing the arp/synced filter pattern with my right hand and playing the sweeping pads with my left hand.
http://www.polariswindow.com/other/Glitchfactor%20-%20Snatch.MP3
I didn't write this part (song was written before I was in the band), so basically I came in and did what I had to do.


To the comment about "not understanding a drummer that uses a metronome," you're basically contradicting yourself with what you say. If the drummer's primary responsibility is to be the metronome of the band, wouldn't you rather him/her be relatively on time? I've seen too many bands where the drummer starts a song @ one tempo then immediately takes off and leaves the band flailing to keep up. As a drummer myself, I can tell you, it's easy to do. The energy of the show, the volume, the lights, the people, that can get the adranaline pumping. If you're not careful, tempos can take off... Hell, just watch any old Police performance. Stewart Copeland, as awesome a drummer as he is, takes off like a rocket and plays half of the music almost twice as fast. I've got a video where you can see Sting mouth the words "SLOW THE FUCK DOWN!"

And to the comment about 100% tempo accuracy sounding "robotic." That really depends on the drummer. A good drummer can play off the click track (almost like an accompanyment) and alter the feel with accents, swinging, playing slightly ahead or behind the beat, all while remaining in perfect tempo. You'd be suprised what someone can come up with if they just have an open mind about it. This weekend, I recorded drums on a new track, playing along to a very unrelenting click (16th notes). I think I still managed to make it swing a bit. The final track will probably end up being naked (with no sequences), but it's perfectly in time, all the while still having a "loose" feeling. As soon as I get hold of a mix, I'll post it to show what I mean.

[Maximus]

well, im sorry to say it but if your band does not play rithmicaly tight (Bad timing especially the drummer) its going to sound bad, so you should check if your rythmic section can keep a beat.

[Bastardo Demono]

in most situations, the band is supossed to be playing in time with the drummer as the guide, not the other way around. since the drummer is not a metronome, you can't expect that setting your arpeggiated sequence at 120 bmp will not get out of time with a drummer who isn't a human metronome, and might realistically be playing a bit under or over 120 bmp. the thing is, over time you will just get continually out of sync, because you are not adjusting to the drummers tempo changes. and yes, it will sound like ass, not "human". It is sometimes hard enough to stay in time with full control of your tempo, let alone with little to no controll.

also, I have heard a lot of "keyboardists" use the arpeggiator to pretend like they are playing an impressive, fast arpeggiated riff, when they are really only playing one note or one triad chord at once. to me that is lame and cheating. It is one thing if it is meant to be obvious (like a lot of techno, it is KNOWN that everything is done using sequencers and arpeggiators) but when it is meant to impersonate live performance, that is lame. And if you have a drummer, it is probably best to avoid using an arpeggiator that has a drum sequence already playing. that just won't work.

arpeggiators can be good if you are a techno artist that is less into musicianship and more into the production/creation side of things. or in general if you are just doing studio stuff, where you can manipulate everything to be in time and its not necessarily be about performance. or live if you do not have a drummer or want a certain backing track for a solo. but rarely, in a live situation, do I think they should be used too often without it being out of time or fake playing

in some pop music, I think some drummers are playing to the backing tapes in their monitors, not the other way around. but most live bands play to the rhythm section...

[ReaPeR]

If you had the time, you can tap the tempo in some manners before starting to play the arpeggiator... for example on my triton i can tap the tempo pressing the [enter] button at tempo... i've never used the arpeggiator before but if it will sound good in part of a song i'll definetely do it... i don't cheat because i play with the tilted keyboard so peaple can se i'm playing only a chord...

[Maximus]

two words

Click track

[Bastardo Demono]

If you had the time, you can tap the tempo in some manners before starting to play the arpeggiator... for example on my triton i can tap the tempo pressing the [enter] button at tempo... i've never used the arpeggiator before but if it will sound good in part of a song i'll definetely do it... i don't cheat because i play with the tilted keyboard so peaple can se i'm playing only a chord...

well thats awesome if you can actually pin the exact tempo of something in a few seconds and set your arpeggiator at that exact numberic tempo at the exact time. but most of us aren't machines like that. and a lot of times drummers might lose or gain a few bmp here or there, so even if you and the drummer start off exactly in time, it will probably get quite out of time very shorty. I guess theorectically, you could constantl be changing the tempo of the arpeggiator to go with the real time tempo of the drummer. but for christ sakes, who really have that kind of insane ability who posts here (and isn't jordan)?

click tracks obvious are what you use when recording and using arpeggios, and thats ok. I mean it is not cool, but so much cheating goes on with amature and professional recording so often who cares. but live is a different story. you are trying to apply machine music to a live human playing setting, and rarely can it work or is it good showmanship

[Staccato]

I feel that if you are not a top programmer the arpeggiator will sound boring.. that same strenght at every note, and you miss the ability to phrase stuff.. I have always loved that live feeling.. the tempo may shift some beats, as long it isn´t to much and all the time..

[NiceKidDoRoxx]

For some reason, I really want to hear Jordan's point of view for this arpeggiator things... :wink: