Looking to buy a synth\keyboard to learn on, any recommendations?(1st post!)

[chrisola]

Hi there,

1st post so bare with me :P

I've been playing the guitar for 5 years or so and am looking to learn something new...

I'm after a keyboard\synth which i can learn on and experiment with, i've not played piano or anything before so i'm basically starting from scratch on the instrument.

Music wise i like: Stratovarius, Children of Bodom, Ring Of Fire, In Flames, Bal Salgoth, Opeth, Iron Maiden, Helloween etc etc, basically anything metal :D

What i'm after out of my purchase (£300/$600 or so)

1) Suitable to learn basics on (eg has basic piano sounds etc)
2) Will let me experiment with leads (eg all the metal stuff like Children of Bodom)
3) Will let me experiment with atmospheric effects (eg black\gothic metal background stuff)
4) Got to be self contained\portable and not ran through my pc!

So far i've looked at ones like the Roland Juno series and the Alesis items, Ion and Micron.

Does anyone have any recommendations?

Also would a 37 key synth\kb limit me? (eg Micron, nice price, seems to have the sound banks id like etc) I'm not into learning any fancy classical pieces etc just to get basics of playing, then go wild with experimenting (widdling would be the guitarists term!) with sounds and the such :)

Also, i'm in the UK so cant really try before i buy.. places that do keyboards near me only carry the general Yamaha\Roland\Korg and not much else, they can order it but then you HAVE to buy it :<

Long post, thanks for your time and advice... *gos off to search function in meantime*

[Omega Monkey]

I wouldnt go with a Micron. They are decent at what they are designed for, but definitely not an "all around" kind of keyboard. Your best bet is something a few years old and used (obviously). There are several good options around that range and just above. Remember, you get what you pay for, and generally the better quality keyboard you get, the more you will be able to sell it for later, if you get bored or whatever or just want to upgrade.

A few suggestions to look into...

Yamaha EX5
Roland Fantom (regular or "S")
Roland XV-88
Korg Trinity
Yamaha S08/S80
maybe one of the later Ensoniqs/Emus (like the TS or PK6)
Yamaha CS6x (I think these take the Yamaha PLG explansion cards too which can add basically an entire synth engine like analog modeling or FM)

[chrisola]

thanks for reply,

Some of those are out of my price range.. (if i can find them on UK ebay!!) but the Korg Trinity is JUST about in..

Anyone else have any opinions? Especially on the 'how many keys' issue...

[Staccato]

Hm, I think you can do just fine with 61 keys..
For the things you want to do, you probably don´t need 88 keys..
For classical pieces you might need it, but for CoB music and so on,
you can do fine with just 61 keys.

[-=AnatomiC=-]

For begging, 37 keys is enough. But you'll need more really soon.
You don't need much in begin.
It depends on what are you planning to do. Do you want just compose music? Any workstation should do. Roland Juno D looks nice, it's maybe to much to begin with, but you will be able to use it for 3-4 years, I think.... (500 euro).

Besides, if you play guitar and you want to syntheseis sound, why don't you take a look at this little gizmo :biggrin:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=592&ParentId=53

Take a look at the video's. Only for 599$.... Jeez, I sound like a roland promoter...

[Staccato]

[QUOTE=-=AnatomiC=-]Any workstation should do. Roland Juno D looks nice, it's maybe to much to begin with, but you will be able to use it for 3-4 years, I think.... (500 euro).

QUOTE]

Hm, Juno D is ok, but nothing more.. the piano sounds are not great, and not many other sounds sound really good.. but they are acceptabel.. so try one out if you can.

[chrisola]

the guitar synth looks cool!

well i'm not going be learning any classical pieces or composing a masterpiece! looking to experiment and just fiddle really, hence not wanting to spend big money to start!

just learn playing basics, find some sounds, then see what happens! (as well as metal, i like 80s stuff like Joy Divison and even drum n bass and dance like Scooter).

Trouble is theres so much stuff out there to choose from :(

[losmusicanos]

Every people can give you a different answer as well... I think the Micron could be nice, but it really depends on what you want to do. It only does synthesizer sounds (no piano, trumpet, etc., or some approximative synthetic emulations of such instruments).

If you want synthetic-only sounds, the Roland SH-201 seems good. Not too expensive, I think. Novation KS-4, KS-5 could do the trick as well. Easy to use, good sounds (but not sold new anymore, I think). Nordleads are great, but maybe the price is higher. I don't know the used price for a Clavia Nordlead 1.

If you want more general sounds: used keyboards like Roland XP30, XP50, Korg Trinity, Triton LE61 are quite interesting. But they are not as intuitive for programming than the synthesizers mentionned above, which actually emulate the synthesis method of older synths.

[chrisola]

cheers for replies...

i've seen a couple of 2nd hand Trinity's about..

would a standard Trinity (eg no add-on boards) give me the lead sounds aswell as general stuff?

[Staccato]

The trinity is capable of most things.. Just listen to Sherinian´s leads!:P I suppose the piano sound just as in the Triton isn´t the best.. but for learning the basics and not playing classical music it´s enough!

[chrisola]

heh..

so now i'm down\up to (going on prices and what i've seen around)

Korg Prophecy - £200
Alesis Mircron - £270
Trinity - £300-400
Alesis Ion - £300
Nord Lead 1 - £250 (hmmm!!!)

The Prophecy sounds AMAZING from the clips i've heard, but it seems to be a lead only board (and 37 key)... but it does it very very well... really tempting but i take it monophonic means no chords can be played? (so i couldnt play the main theme from Jump by Van Halen for example??) it is tempting cos of the price..

Does the Trinity have the same sort of lead sounds as the Prophecy?

[Syrinx]

If you are looking for a keyboard with many onboard sounds, then you need a "rompler" like the ones already suggested in this thread Yamaha EX-5, S80, Roland XP,Fantom/S, Korg O1/w, Trinity...etc.
Most of the ones you have their prices in your last post (actually all but the trinity) are not like that, they are synthesizers. While they are very capable instuments and all, they don't have pianos/harpsicords sounds with high degrees of realism, and they have limited polyphony. Polyphony you'll get in a used rompler could be around 64, Alesis ION has 8!!

So, you need to decide on that to narrow down your options, and it shouldn't be too hard because it depends on what you want to do. If you are familiar with Jens Johansson (Malmsteen/ Stratovarius). He uses a module equivalent to Roland XP-60, and it's a rompler.

New vs. used is another thing you'd have to decide, for me it's case closed for the used. You'll get a much better capable instrument this way. You just have to be a little careful so you don't end up with a very expensive paperweight.

Best.
EDIT: For $600 or less, you can get a Yamaha EX-5 or EX-7, Roland XP-60, Korg Trinity/Triton LE. Awesome power for the price. My personal vote will go to Yamaha EX-5. It has like 4 or 5 different synth engines, good samples, tremendous number of patches online ready to download. Go to http://www.ex5tech.com/ and see for yourself.

[Omega Monkey]

Yeah I wouldnt recommend any of the ones in that list to start with aside from the Trinity maybe.

You probably dont want to go with a more specialized keyboard until you already have something to cover the basics. Which pretty much means you should be looking for a rompler/workstation. Like the ones I mentioned before.

The Prophecy, to be blunt, would be horrible. Its a cool keyboard in its own way, but you would be frustrated with it in about 20 minutes when you got tired of leads and basses and wanted to play more than 1 note at a time (unless you have a serious fetish for reliving the early 70s). If you want similar sounds, the Z1 would be a better bet. Its got basically the same engine as the Prophecy but is polyphonic. I still wouldnt really recommend it though as its still more of a specialty keyboard to get once you already have an established setup.

The same goes for the VA's you mentioned (like the Micron, etc...). I think you would likely get frustrated missing out on all those "real" sounds (pianos, organs, drum sounds, etc...) that are the strict domain of sample playback synths.

Also, keep in mind, you get what you pay for. Spending a few extra pounds now in the right way can get you more enjoyment/productivity as well as a better resale value if/when you decide to sell. Also it opens your options up a lot and you can get something you will be really happy with.

[chrisola]

thanks again for all the replies.

i'm probably asking stupid questions but:

one of these ROMpler keyboards, will that give me the passable piano & organs aswell as the the options a synth has? like the lead sounds and ability to just create strange noises? :)

and, is there really much difference between all the various makes and models? :)

I've read some good reviews of a Korg X5D (most of the reviews were from people who play in prog rock bands..) so am looking about on ebay.. but it doesnt seem to have a pitch bend wheel..

MAN this tough.

Buying guitars is alot easier, Its just about colours and shapes!! :P

Hopefully getting to test\have demo'd form a Nord Lead 1 soon.

[Syrinx]

Are you kidin' me? Of course it's tough. I used to be a guitarist myself, and probably a couple of visits to the store was one too many, try a few axes and bam you're done. I spent like 6 months researching the web to get my first keyboard :)

Back to your questions, the answer is mostly yes. You can think of a Rompler as a jack of all trades with emphasis on real instruments. So some people may compare rompler X to rompler Y by saying the first has a much better piano sound...etc. Among the many and usually big samples of real instruments there are also wave samples (usually they are looped one cycle waves) to mimic the waves produced by synthesizers like Moog, Oberheim..etc. you could use these wave samples to come up with leads much like you do on the Moog. You will have tools to alter (modulate/filter) these waves to your liking.

The rule of thumb is that the newer romplers are better (more polyphony, more/better samples) than old ones. I don't have a 1st hand experience with the Korg X5D but I believe it has the same engine as the O1/w, yes?

Try google and look for sound samples, I did and came up with this for the X5D: http://www.blosphere.net/~janne/KorgX5BuyersGuide.html

Also look for user/magazine reviews for the specific products you will consider.

Good luck.

[stealth]

I think the trinity is an awesome buy - it's still one of the most powerful workstations out there despite its age.. it doesn't have a lot of the RT parameter control that the Tritons have, but the engine is still very similar and it can do just about anything fairly well (plus its pads and leads are amazing, better than the Triton IMO because of the more expansive FX engine).

[Omega Monkey]

Basically the sounds a rompler can make are dependent on the waves it has to work with. So most romplers have a wide variety of different real and synthetic waves to work with and some of them can load new waves as well (typically from a memory card, floppy disk, cd, etc...).

Of course, once you have the waves you still have to manipulate them, otherwise you would be stuck with the "raw" waves which would limit the types of sounds you could make. One of the most important things to look at is the filter. The filter section on any synth really is one of the biggest pieces in determining the character of the sound. A lot of synths in the 80s and early 90s didnt even have filters so these are usually very limited in what they can do. Play around with the filter on a potential synth and see what kinds of things it can do. Things to look for would be multimode filters (ie lowpass, hipass, bandpass, band cut, etc...) and the slope (which could be anything from 6db/oct to 24db/oct or even more). The greater the slope the more radical the changes you can make with the filter. The filter section is also basically what give a rompler the ability to emulate analog synth sounds. They will have pure unfiltered waves in memory, and then you shape them with the filter to get typical synth sounds. Obviously the better the waves and the better the filter, the more successful this will be. On my Yamaha EX5 (circa 98) with a wide selection of synth waves and killer filters I can get "analog" sound that are almost indistinguishable from the original. On my Ensoniq SQ1+ (@ 91), this is not so easy, and so that synth is more suited for "digital" type sounds, like big shimmery pads and whatnot.

As far as the X5, its an ok synth, but its VERY beginner level, and you would outgrow it a lot faster than you would something like a Trinity or EX5. Just to give you an idea, when the EX5 was new, the keyboardist for Yes was using it as one of his primary keyboards. At the time it was one of if not THE best you could get pretty much. Its basically an early Motif but with a few different features and not quite as powerful on some of the stuff (like wave rom, but the waves in the EX are very nice for the most part, plus you get analog modeling and physical modeling). The Trinity when that was new was being used by Derek Sherinian with DT. So that gives you an idea of the capbilities of those synths.

[chrisola]

thanks for your info!! definitely narrowing things down..

Anyone have opinions on the Yamaha DX-7 and DX-7 mark II? I like the sounds Jens Johansson gets from them!! (just reading up now, but they seem REALLY old and hard to program?)

The EX5 is going for about £450-£500 on ebay, way out of my price range :(

Down to:

Korg X5D
Korg N634
Korg Trinity
Alesos Ion
Nord Lead 2 (if the guy will ANSWER his advert... why place an ad then not bother answering replies?)

[losmusicanos]

Just to give you an idea, when the EX5 was new, the keyboardist for Yes was using it as one of his primary keyboards. At the time it was one of if not THE best you could get pretty much.

He (Igor Khoroshev) had on stage, both an EX-5 and an EX-7 (its 61-key little brother). He must have loved them, that's sure ;)

http://www.khoroshev.com/gear.html

[losmusicanos]

Down to:

Korg X5D
Korg N634
Korg Trinity
Alesos Ion
Nord Lead 2 (if the guy will ANSWER his advert... why place an ad then not bother answering replies?)

Korg X5D is almost a toy, it's a cheap keyboard imo.

Korg N364... don't know. I think it's better.

Trinity - would certainly be a good choice (the best in your list). As well as a Roland XP50/30/60.

Alesis ION & Nordlead 2 - those are "virtual analog" synths and then they don't have samples inside (instruments reproduced with audio snippets). None of them has internal effects, which can be really annoying after a while (analog sounds with no reverb and no delay tend to become boring after a while).

If the Yamaha EX-5 is too expensive, you can still check the EX-7. It's a very good synth, a bit less powerful than the EX-5, but surely a strong competitor to Trinity and Roland XP series (approximatively the same era).

Yamaha DX-7 is very very specific. Some people manage to do a lot of things with FM synthesis, but I wouldn't recommand a DX7 to someone wanting to tweak the sounds. The synthesis is quite boring and non-intuitive. It has no internal effects either.

It's quite hard to chose a synth... and in my case, it's generally the synth that is chosing me :biggrin:

[Syrinx]

+1 for avoiding the DX7, FM synthesis is maybe the hardest methods of sound syntheis to grasp, and the Yamaha interface doesn't really help on top of that. I think Jens only use it as a controller, maybe a harpsicord/bass synth sound every now and then. He now has the Roland JV-1080/2080 (modules equivalent to the Roland XP-60) and his main sounds come from the Roland module(s), before that he had the Korg Polysix.

The Trinity is a very capable workstation, just listen to Derek :) Same goes for the EX-7, and the Roland XP's.

As I said before, as well as others, avoid the ION/Micron/Nord. These are not what you are looking for. They are speciality gear, and they have no realistic samples what so ever.

If you don't have enough money now to get something decent, then you should wait till you have enough. Getting a cheaper keyboard now, albeit tempting, may not be the wisest option on the long run. You'll most probably be bored with its limitations/sounds in a few months and you'll end up selling it to get something better.

[Syrinx]

http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?A_PROD_NO=TRINITY

[Staccato]

Go for the Trinity.. so now you know!:) so far, I think Trinity, Roland Xp and yamaha EX 7 all sound like good boards.. go for one of them

[chrisola]

Just seen 2 expanded EX-7s for £250 & £280.

One local to me (same guy whos just sold the nord lead).

HOPEFULLY going to get to have a look at this!

Be helpful. especially if the guy knows how to use it, he can demo it for me.

[synthcomposer]

The Korg le is a good starting point, and it has lots of great sounds.