The Best Keyboard...

[Hamayra]

Hey, i was thinking with me, what is the best keyboard, for all sittuations ???
I think that a Kurzweil K2600XS or a Korg Trinton Studio 88 keys, are the best, and what do you think ???

I am thinking a Key that can do the most things alone...


Thanks...

[Luca_Capozzi]

I am thinking a Key that can do the most things alone...


Without the player? :D

Btw, I don't think that exist "the best of" but i follow the mind of "the best for". If you want a versatile instrument, my choice go on every Kurzweil with VAST and Clavia Nord Modular. About Korg.. i've not tried yet Karma nor Triton Pro/Extreme.. Karma seems to be a cool piece of instrument but I don't love "press a key to start" keyboards ;) Triton series seems to have great samples and presets.. and no more :\

For good samples, actually, you can afford a good rackmount pc with a GigaStudio. If you pay attention to cooling and noise reduction, you can get a very stable platform for your studio/live experience and put it through your preferred synthesiser.

My 2 cents :)

See ya

[Omega Monkey]

My god, I think Kurzweils may just be more overrated than Porcupine Tree. I was borrowing a K2500s for a while, and it was fun to have a 67 key with ribbon controllers, but the sounds werent the great, and thing was like impossible to edit. And it's not me, Ive been programming synths since I was 9 or 10, and Im almost 25 now. Plus, the sounds seemed to have this unnatural low thunk to them which was really annoying, and no lower midrange. I played a K2600xs in GC several times and it seemed about the same. Anyway, its not like Jordan is the king of tone or anything.

I think I would take a Triton over a K anyday, but right now Im leaning towards a Motif. Those things are really nice at least to the extent that I've used them. And if it's good enough for Chick Corea (the MAN) it's good enough for me probably. Chick always has awesome tone, so I would definitely trust him more than Jordan in that area. Wakeman is great too, and he uses Korg and Roland mostly, so go figure.

Of course, I dont really buy into the whole thing of trying to cram all your keyboard sounds into one board. You will ALWAYS have to ocmpromise on SOMETHING. But I suppose if you went for a Motif or XV-88 or Triton, with an Andromeda, a Hammond emulator, and a real Rhodes, you would have pretty much all the bases covered in 4 boards. And for live stuff you could probably deal with the Motif and the Andromeda, depending on how many sounds you needed at once (of course you only have 2 hands!).

BTW, the Andromeda is really bad ass! I just wish I could afford one.

[SirMaximus]

BTW, the Andromeda is really bad ass! I just wish I could afford one.Yes,you should buy the Andromeda!I have it,and it really is amazing!

[merijn]

My god, I think Kurzweils may just be more overrated than Porcupine Tree. I was borrowing a K2500s for a while, and it was fun to have a 67 key with ribbon controllers, but the sounds werent the great, and thing was like impossible to edit. And it's not me, Ive been programming synths since I was 9 or 10, and Im almost 25 now. Plus, the sounds seemed to have this unnatural low thunk to them which was really annoying, and no lower midrange. I played a K2600xs in GC several times and it seemed about the same. Anyway, its not like Jordan is the king of tone or anything.

I think I would take a Triton over a K anyday, but right now Im leaning towards a Motif. Those things are really nice at least to the extent that I've used them. And if it's good enough for Chick Corea (the MAN) it's good enough for me probably. Chick always has awesome tone, so I would definitely trust him more than Jordan in that area. Wakeman is great too, and he uses Korg and Roland mostly, so go figure.

Of course, I dont really buy into the whole thing of trying to cram all your keyboard sounds into one board. You will ALWAYS have to ocmpromise on SOMETHING. But I suppose if you went for a Motif or XV-88 or Triton, with an Andromeda, a Hammond emulator, and a real Rhodes, you would have pretty much all the bases covered in 4 boards. And for live stuff you could probably deal with the Motif and the Andromeda, depending on how many sounds you needed at once (of course you only have 2 hands!).

BTW, the Andromeda is really bad ass! I just wish I could afford one.

You played k2500 without KDFX? And the presets suck anyway from that board.

[maJ estY]

Yeah, Kurzweils seem to be pretty "different" in comparison to actually all other keyboards.
Everyone knows that presets of Kurzweils suck, but there's nothing you can't do with a K2600 with KDFX! That's the difference!

[merijn]

Yeah, Kurzweils seem to be pretty "different" in comparison to actually all other keyboards.
Everyone knows that presets of Kurzweils suck, but there's nothing you can't do with a K2600 with KDFX! That's the difference!

Agreed! A kurzweil stands for total freedom! Which is fantastic if you are a workstation dude.

[Enigma™]

My god, I think Kurzweils may just be more overrated than Porcupine Tree. I was borrowing a K2500s for a while, and it was fun to have a 67 key with ribbon controllers, but the sounds werent the great, and thing was like impossible to edit. And it's not me, Ive been programming synths since I was 9 or 10, and Im almost 25 now. Plus, the sounds seemed to have this unnatural low thunk to them which was really annoying, and no lower midrange. I played a K2600xs in GC several times and it seemed about the same. Anyway, its not like Jordan is the king of tone or anything.

Just to respond to a couple things:
A: The Kurzweil is NOT overrated. There are programming chains, algorithms, controls, effects, etc.. that you can't make on another synth. *they all have their own sound, but in the end, it's what YOU do with it*
B: They're NOT impossible to edit. It's called features and abilities. It doesn't matter that you've been playing with synths 15 years ago. So you know what an oscillator is. Big Whoop. Do you know how to program a FUN in the Kurzweil? I know people that have owned a Kurzweil 2x00 for over 15 years, and they are STILL getting into it's programming abilities.
C: That lower thunk you're referring to is called even level outs. It's designed for studio work. The idea from other synth manafacturers is this: Let's make the outputs as hot as possible without clipping so that when people play our synths in the stores, they're going to think they can hear them better. It's an ACTUAL selling technique. Talk to just about anyone that actually KNOWS stuff about synths, and they can confirm it for you. It's an audio-acoustical thing. Anyway, As far as that goes, the kurzweil's half designed to go into a mixer first, as with the slightly lower levels, they're more balanced and have much less chance of overdriving or clipping when outputting then some other synths do.
D: Yes, I know the presets suck. Yes, I can TOTALLY agree with that. But I've also use the trinity and a Triton a number of times, and let me tell you... The presets are all that there ARE on those synths. You can do SOME basic synthy editing but it's quite limited. If I were to get another workstation, I'd get the MotifES - That IS a monster. Has GREAT samples, it is capable of actually making some decent sounds as well through synthesis, and has a nice effects board as well. With the ES - I agree -what a monster :)

In the end about the Kurzweil, it's all about what you're doing with it. I know Paul Dillen made some AWESOME FM piano sounds, etc.. by using ACTUAL FM synthesis on the Kurzweil... With the VAST there's so much that you're able to do, that it took them 15 years to get the FM portion out of it. Then the 2600 has TMP, as well as built in KDFX, etc.. Add some Rom options...

Now on the flip side, let me ask you this: If it were SOOO overrated, why the hell do so many people use them?

BTW: Try and find a keyboard player that's into programming his OWN sounds as much as JR is. All the major keyboard players I can think of are too busy trying to find which preset sounds good in a certain spot.
*Note: That doesn't exactly apply to the older analogue synth players: They didn't HAVE presets :P*

[bmwfreak]

Just 2c !
I've owned K2600X for 3 years before I moved across the ocean and had to sell my baby.Before I bought it I compared it thoroughly with Triton and chose K2600X. Why, Because it sounded warmer and organic, not synthetic and "pop-like". I have just one thing to say: Even though the board sounds a little "dated" compared to ever evolving Triton/Motif/Fantom competitors it is the most versatile and flexible instrument on the planet. If you don't know how to program the instrument read the god damn manual !!!! I would say most half of touring artist shows have a Kurzweil on stage in one form or another and this should tell you something about the quality of this instrument.
Once I get some more money I am buying another K2600X or newer if they ever release it, that's for sure.
Over and out
Dan

[merijn]

Just 2c !
I've owned K2600X for 3 years before I moved across the ocean and had to sell my baby.Before I bought it I compared it thoroughly with Triton and chose K2600X. Why, Because it sounded warmer and organic, not synthetic and "pop-like". I have just one thing to say: Even though the board sounds a little "dated" compared to ever evolving Triton/Motif/Fantom competitors it is the most versatile and flexible instrument on the planet. If you don't know how to program the instrument read the god damn manual !!!! I would say most half of touring artist shows have a Kurzweil on stage in one form or another and this should tell you something about the quality of this instrument.
Once I get some more money I am buying another K2600X or newer if they ever release it, that's for sure.
Over and out
Dan

Great! That's the word..

[Omega Monkey]

Ok, I've looked up FUNs, and obviously that is not really the kind of thing you can get into with limited time on a synth. Also they seem to have limited practical applications, although they are a pretty cool idea. Basically, it all comes down to oscillators. Thats where you make your money on any synth. If the oscillators blow, you might as well give up. And I just dont think the oscillators sound that great on the Kurzweil. They may be capable of a lot of different things, but if most of those things arent that great, whats the point? I know I can get nearly any sound I want out of my 20+ year old JX3p that I paid $120 for. It cant do ANY sound, but if it had 2 more envelopes and 2 more lfos, it would have pretty much all you could need for subtractive synthesis. Anyway, I didnt really spend THAT much time trying to program the Kurzweil, becuase the UI is such a pain in the ass. I have never seen a synth with a more convoluted UI than that. None of the functions seemed to DO anything, no matter what I tried. That thing makes my D-50 look like a Minimoog as far as ease of programming. There's something to be said for designing a synth to be powerful AND simple.

Also, I think you are probably overstating the the lack of editing capabilities on the korgs. And for the guy who said 1/2 of all tours have Kurzweils...wha? I have seen ONE band ever that used Kurzweil, and Im sure you can all guess who that was. Meanwhile, I've seen countless korgs rolands and yamahas (not so many yamahas, they are only recently regaining popularity). I think about 90% of their prevalence around here is due to the fact that it's what Jordan plays. Please point out to me ALL these other people who use them (talking about pros here, not hobbyists).

And the "even level out" thing you mentioned does not explain the the thuddy, flabby, no lower midrange at all sound of the 2500. This is an eq problem, not a level problem. It could probably be solved with an outboard eq, but thats a pain in the ass and adds noise.

And another thing, the highly condescending tone in your post is really unnecessary. Please do not assume or imply that I dont know anything about keyboards, because that is obviously not the case. But not all of us have 3k to throw around on an overpriced keyboard. I was only speaking from MY experience, and in MY experience, the K series is not all its hyped up to be.

And just keep this in mind, the Minimoog is a fairly limited synth by todays standards, but it is pretty much THE benchmark for how a synth should sound.

[Bastardo Demono]

BTW, the Andromeda is really bad ass! I just wish I could afford one.Yes,you should buy the Andromeda!I have it,and it really is amazing!

or you could buy its less attractive, but still doable-after-a-few-beers cousin the alesis ion!

[maJ estY]

@ Omega Monkey:

You said that it's too hard to program it - and that's exactly the point! If you would know everything about the K26, I bet you wouldn't use ANYthing else anymore, because you just won't find anything which can do as much as that one!

As for keyboardists who use Kurzweil keyboards... Just an example... Do you know Alicia Keys? I don't know much about her, only that she became pretty famous on the whole world in 2003. Here is a picture of her:

(She's actually singing, but she also plays piano.)

http://guide.supereva.it/london/myimg/124508_1.jpg


Right now Derek Sherinian comes to my mind, too. He used one when he toured with Dream Theater - a K2000 rack! (Jordan Rudess told me that in connection with a quite funny story :twisted: )

[maJ estY]

More "celebrities" who use Kurzweil:
Steve Walsh, Alan Howarth, Greg Mathieson

[Deceit]

Korg Triton Studio 88 is much better than K2600XS. No way. Kurzweil is overrated, Triton's worth each $ or € you pay for it.
To quote a celebrity, I should bring on the stage mr. Rick Wakeman. He is second only to Keith Emerson, and he has endorsed Korg Triton ProX.
Ok, you have a thousand algorithms and routes and chains and who cares, but Korg's both easy and powerful and the capabilities ARE the same.
Deceit.

[Over The Edge]

:?


FL
www.franklucas.net

[merijn]

Hahahahaha! You live in 2003 and you play a PC88 :P :lol:

http://guide.supereva.it/london/myimg/124508_1.jpg

[bmwfreak]

More artists: The whole David Bowie setup !!!! Blue Man Group, most of country keyboardists oh, and Rick Wakeman uses one too !!!! John Novello - these are the names that jump into my head right away.
I don't know what type of music you listen to but if you listen to "serious" music you can easily spot Kurzweil in one way or another. This is definetely not to say that Triton/Motif/Fantom suck, they are great instruments, but ... for me at least they don't cut it ! So what you can put a GIG of sample ram or burn a CD right off the keyboard. If I have a laptop and Gigastudio + K2600X I am better off.
One more thing, I never had problems with outputs on my K2600X. It is possible that simply KDFX sounds better than the standard effects chip in K2500 line.
Another 2c
Dan

[Shreddy]

The best is always subjective.

Some musicians dont have the time to program patches or want just standard tones (Rhodes, Brass, Pads, Strings, etc.). For those players a board with great presets like a Roland or Yamaha are better suited.

Techno guys might find the Korgs to be more usefull.

The guys that want analog tones need a Moog Voyager.

If someone wants to edit till the cows come home get a Kurz.

If someone wants a powerful sampler then they get an Emu Rack.

Then there's the best for your budget which opens up a whole can of worms.

It all comes down to what your doing with your music. Technically most boards will work for most musicians. If you didnt have anything I doubt you would turn down a Yam S-80 or Alesis 8.1.

[Luca_Capozzi]

we're talking of keyboards in general or we're talking about synthesisers? without making a "war of faiths"... what all of you thinking about to compare different modulation matrixs of K2*00 vs Korg/Roland/Yamaha ones?

just curious :)

see ya

[Hamayra]

The Proposal of this forum was to say, the best key standalone...But now lets do this....For You what is the best set ??? I dont want to know fenomenal sets, just wanna know a set that's do the most things, with quality, and for the less price...And another question is: If you can buy only one keyboard, if you dont have one, but you have money to buy any key you want, but you can only buy one key, what would it be ???....


Thank...

[Omega Monkey]

To quote a celebrity, I should bring on the stage mr. Rick Wakeman. He is second only to Keith Emerson, and he has endorsed Korg Triton ProX.


Pssst...Emerson uses Korg too (at least last I heard).

And since when has Wakey used Kurzweil? I now he is a staunch Korg supporter since the early 80s, and his touring rig with Yes includes:

Prophecy
01WProX
Karma
TritonPro
TrinityPro
General Music Promega 3
XV-88
Mini
Roland RD-700
CX-3
X5DR
Triton rack
E-mu E4
MS-2000R

That is taken directly out of a recent Keyboard feature. He also says...

"If I had to take four keyboards, I'd take the Generalmusic Promega 3, the Minimoog, the Korg Triton ProX, and the Roland XV-88...Everything here is being used. If you took something away, I'd be in trouble."

So as far as I know Rick doesnt and hasnt ever used Kurzweil. If you could link to an article or pic though, I would be interested to see.

Im not saying Kurzweils totally suck or anything. Just that I think theyre a bit overhyped here due to whos forum this is. Just remember, not even JR uses JUST Kurzweil. He also uses Korg, Roland, and Moog as well to varying degrees (and maybe Emu? I dont remember). To their credit, I know that Moraz used Kurzweil a lot in the 80s at least. I didnt remember that Garson used one, but I guess he does. Also whatsisface from the Waters tour. But those are more "nostalgia" tours. I dont look at those as "fresh" music. Kurzweils do seem to do a pretty good job of imitating a bunch of different type sounds in a live setting, maybe that is their strong point. I admit that the Welcome To The Machine solo coming out of a Kurzweil (or at least controlled by one, coulda been a rack) and panning around the pavillion was pretty damn cool.

For me, tone wise, the best modern keys player is Bodin. He always has great tones and lots of different ones too. He uses lots of Clavia/Nord and I think maybe Korg too. And Chick Corea sounded AWESOME on his Elektric Band tour with his Mk V Rhodes and Motif 8. If ever there was a convincing endorsement for Yamaha it's that guy. His 60th birthday concerts, he had his choice of like 16 top end Yamahas and he chose one specific one for the whole thing. And he has it tuned RIGHT before he goes onstage by this old blind guy. So he is very discerning, and he plays Yamaha. And he always sounds brilliant. I wish he would do another electric album. He hasnt done one in like 12 years! Maybe an RTF reunion...ah well, one can dream, right?

[maJ estY]

Jordan's main keyboard is the Kurzweil andhe would never give it away, because it has one feature that no other keyboard has.
Jordan talked much about that on the clinic in January.

To call the problem by its name: "Patch hold"!

Take ANY keyboard. You play a sound and hit the sustain pedal.
Then you change the WHOLE setup.
Is the sound still there? NO!!!

Do the same with a Kurzweil and the sound is still there! Jordan gets many requests of manufactures. They say "Hey man, don't you want to check out this and that very great keyboard?" Jordan plays a bit with it and says: "Well, it's good, but I can't use it, because the sounds are always away after doing this and that." It even sounded like this was Jordan's ONLY reason why he still uses the K2600.

By the way: You can read what Jordan uses in his studio and on stage on the FAQ site: www.jordanrudess.com/faq.html . If you speak German: www.jordanrudess.de/faq.html (shameless self-promotion :twisted: )

[Over The Edge]

The Motif can do a version of patch hold.
You have to be in mix/song mode and switch
sounds manually using the bank buttons.
Sounds will not cut off and change without
interruption. You are, however, limited to
16 midi channels or at the most, 16 single
programs, 8 dual layer performances, or 4
quad layer performances.



FL
www.franklucas.net

[maJ estY]

Hah! Even my Roland XP-30 for less than 1500 bucks can do that in the performance mode, but the sounds are not as good as in patch mode, where patch hold is NOT possible. I think it' the same with the Motif, right?

By the way, my performace mode is also limited to 16 channels - and they all can have only one effect. (You can choose if this effect is enabled on a channel or not, but you can't have different effects in one performace sound.)

[Spacehog]

My E-MU's can do "patch-hold"... not that it's much relevant to anything in this discussion. FWIW, there's no best, there is only different, IMO. I intend to get Korg, Roland, Yamaha, Clavia and possibly Kurzweil keyboards or modules to add to my rig in the coming years, it's about having the spread of sounds you need for the application you're using it in, and each make has sounds which have different uses. Just my €0.02

Martin

[Drusillus]

The Fantom can do patch hold too (Roland calls it "patch remain"), it's kinda quirky though, and is only really useful if you disable the MFX processor... I think the reason most modern keyboards don't support patch hold is due to the way they do DSP effects.

Really, in my opinion, I think in this day in age the top-of-the-line workstations from all manufacturers are on pretty equal ground, one may be lacking in one feature but it usually makes up for it with another. I can agree that the Kurz is probably the most powerful, but that doesn't mean it's the best, ease of use is also an important factor.

[Over The Edge]

In song/mix/performance mode my Motif's
patches sound almost identical to the
way sounds are presented in program
or performance mode. A lot of times
my effects settings are copied over
exactly as the were in the original.



FL
www.franklucas.net