What do you do when you feel that you do not advance with your instrument ?

[Georges]

In the beginnings of learning an instrument, progress is quite easily found because you start from nothing. However, the farther you get the more difficult progress will be "visible" / hearable. Okay, talent may get you even farther but there will always be some point when you feel cornered ...

So, what you do / would you do to progress when you feel cornered ? Another question, why do you think that you feel that way at some point ?

3 days ago, I had a discussion with another musician who felt the same way as me, that is cornered at an advanced level. In the course of that discussion I made a link between the learning process within martial arts and music, and we have come to an astonishing conclusion. I won't reveal that conclusion rightaway, first I want to have your feedback to the above questions, just to see ;).

[Liquid Shadow]

It comes and goes, so I just plod through those times that I feel I'm going nowhere. I usually try to find inspiration in something new, and then try to grow through that.



I think that even if I could play like Jordan or someone of equal caliber, I would still look for ways to improve. I'm sure he's like that too. There's always something to work on, so I think that if you feel you are so advanced you can't grow, then you're just not looking in the right place. Even if it's a very small thing to fine tune, which most people would never notice, there's always something to work on. And it's not always something that you necessarily *need* to improve, since other people don't know or care, it's just a personal thing...working out all the little kinks, and never being fully satisfied with where you are at...always trying to push forward a little bit at a time.

[Omega Monkey]

Yeah, there are always things to get better at. Once you tackle the bigger things (like say general speed and articulation), you can work on progressively smaller and smaller ones.

[EloHiR ElEnDIl]

U are always learning on the "music" thing

[Georges]

So, to sum we have at least two approaches:

- work on details
- work on something new

My idea is that you when you're stuck, you should revisit your basics and work on them again (not only for 5 minutes!). The basics you once acquired. no matter how well you "mastered" them, were learned with basic musical knowledge and techniques. They have made you the player you are now.

When you revisit the basics you will tackle them with advanced knowledge and techniques. You will notice that you did not master the basics at all and that there are serious areas for improvement. Work on those areas again and work yourself up again. Along the way, you will discover other details and new things, which were all blurred to you before. All of the sudden, you will understand why certain things worked and why others didn't.

You could of course continue with advanced stuff, dig into details or discover something new but I guess progress will then be slower than if you restart from the beginning and work yourself up, because you do not try to understand the basics. You will continue to do those things wrong which you did wrong before and that will slow you down. Your intermediate/advanced level is based on the basics, if the latter start to crumble, you won´t be able to go any further efficiently.

An alternative way to progress would be to start teaching the piano to beginners. The latter do not necessarily understand things the way you did, so they put yourself into question and require you to go back to the basics , so that you can make them understand. Ironically, the teacher himself learns even more than the student and gets paid for it in addition ;).

There is a saying: if you have lost your way, go back to the beginning of the way.

[Liquid Shadow]

Yeah teaching is crazy. I started giving lessons to a friend and it's very different being on that side of things.

[ImaX]

Some years ago I had a talk with a drummer about the death of Jeff Porcaro - there were still rumors that it was suicide, so we tried to find a reason why someone should not be happy with his life beeing one of the best drummers in the world (of course that doesn't mean you're happy, but that's not what it's about now). Finally we ended talking about what would be the "highest goal for a musician to achive" and beeing satisfied with it.

Everyone of us wants to get better all the time and tries to improve himself - do you think there could ever be an end of improving your skills? Let's say you're concentrating on a special kind of music - you get better, you learn from other players and finally you can do everything the others can do. So now you're developing your own style, find some new ideas and you take ideas from other genres which fit into your style.... and then?

I'm not talking about finding one more detail you can learn from another person or another music-genre, that's something you'll never end with. But is there a point from which you can't *really* advance?

Anyway... I personally don't want to reach this point, I think it takes out the most interesting part of making music: improving yourself.

[Georges]

But is there a point from which you can't *really* advance?

For me a point at which my progress starts to slow down (i.e. take longer) is the same as no progress. Progress should always be "feelable". That's what I am talking about. Sometimes you feel that you don't really progress, even if you learned a few details here and there or a few music styles here and there, doesn't matter, what counts is the feeling of progress, for it encourages you to continue improving yourself. Moreover, sometimes it is difficult to notice what makes you progress slower or not at all. That's where going back to the basics most definately saves you alot of time.

[ImaX]

Yeah, but you always know that you will advance again someday or you know that there are still a lot of things you can learn. Or are you talking about a point at which you can finally play everything you want and don't know what's coming next?

[Georges]

Yeah, but you always know that you will advance again someday or you know that there are still a lot of things you can learn. Or are you talking about a point at which you can finally play everything you want and don't know what's coming next?

Obviously, you have never reached that point yet, how long have you been playing ? There is always alot which you can learn, there is always something you may discover, never doubt that BUT it just so happens that sometimes and despite those many possibilities progress is so slow that you wonder whether or not you are still learning. The question is how to avoid wasting that time.

What use is it to learn new techniques and styles, if you do not even master the basics ? At one point, that deficiency will slow you down. If you now claim that you'd master the basics at all costs, ok then this topic may not be applicable to you, but I'd rather doubt it, for the basics are never perfect. The most dangerous for progress would actually be to think that you are already too good for the basics.

[MatrixGrowl]

For me a point at which my progress starts to slow down (i.e. take longer) is the same as no progress. Progress should always be "feelable". That's what I am talking about. Sometimes you feel that you don't really progress, even if you learned a few details here and there or a few music styles here and there, doesn't matter, what counts is the feeling of progress, for it encourages you to continue improving yourself. Moreover, sometimes it is difficult to notice what makes you progress slower or not at all. That's where going back to the basics most definately saves you alot of time.

IMO, I find this to be not a very healthy mentality for a musician. You are correct when you say that there is a point where progress slows down and doesn't become as noticable. However, just because progress slows doesn't mean you should get dejected, you should feel accomplished that you have come far from nothing, and look for other ways to improve your technique. I have had those moments where it feels as though progress is going nowhere, but the more you play, it is always advancing, feelable or not. The fact of the matter is that practice will make you a better player, and you shouldn't feel discouraged about the lack of feelable progress. I hope I helped:wink:

Much love,
Steve-o

[Georges]

However, just because progress slows doesn't mean you should get dejected, you should feel accomplished that you have come far from nothing, and look for other ways to improve your technique.

I didn't say that you should feel dejected once progress is slow, I just suggested a way to make progress move fast again.

Looking for "other" ways to improve your technique is what I suggested, i.e. go back to the foundation. The problem is that when you are cornered you usually do not know WHAT corners you, going back may make you realize where those areas are. Moreover, nobody hinders you to go back to the basics and to explore new things at the same time.

It's all about winning time through smarter training; not about feeling dejected, accomplished or whatsoever, and most certainly not about hard blindless practicing à la Hanon.

[Enc3f4L0]

I believe learning new things adds up to all other aspects of your playing...

Even if it seems like you're not evolving, you are... Only you're stuck at a plateau... It's like each plateau costs more, and while you're 'cornered' you are just adding up your points until you can 'buy' your next level...

Like it's been said. Practice the basics again...

Play with as much other musicians you can.

Listen to music you don't usually do...

[ImaX]

Obviously, you have never reached that point yet, how long have you been playing ? There is always alot which you can learn, there is always something you may discover, never doubt that BUT it just so happens that sometimes and despite those many possibilities progress is so slow that you wonder whether or not you are still learning. The question is how to avoid wasting that time.

What use is it to learn new techniques and styles, if you do not even master the basics ? At one point, that deficiency will slow you down. If you now claim that you'd master the basics at all costs, ok then this topic may not be applicable to you, but I'd rather doubt it, for the basics are never perfect. The most dangerous for progress would actually be to think that you are already too good for the basics.

You got me wrong, I didn't talk about myself - I also sometimes feel that there's no progress. I just thought about a theoretical point which someone could maybe reach... but in reality I guess there's enough to learn if you want to and if you have the right idea how to get there.

[Georges]

but in reality I guess there's enough to learn if you want to and if you have the right idea how to get there.

"How to get there" is the topic of discussion here.