A songwriting-question for Jordan, and everyone else!

[RayMan]

Hi guys!
I was just wondering how you write your songs in your band. A friend of mine told me that DT comes up with the vocal-line BEFORE they make the actual music... Jordan, is this correct? When writing in a band, do you have a certain process for each time you write a song. If that's the case, how is your process (step by step)? Looking forward to reading the replies from you, my fellow musicians! Thank you!
Raymond

[maJ estY]

Listen to the music Dream Theater creates. You can't compose such music when you have the vocal lines first. The music is ALWAYS what they come up with first. The lyrics are written at the end, but I guess that the vocal melodies are part of the songwriting.

[Liquid Shadow]

It's possible to go both ways. Some of my favorite material that I've written has been done:

-Music first, vocals after the fact, lyrics to go with written vocal melody
-Music first, lyrics second, vocal melody to go with lyrics
-Vocal melody first, music and lyrics written to go with that
-Lyrics first, melody written to go with that, music added after the fact


It can happen any way you want it to. Just let the creativity flow and do what feels right. No one method is right/wrong and no one method will yield better results. Some people are better one way than the other and that's fine. Some people can do it any way they feel like and that's equally cool. In the end, it's all music, and you don't experience the writing process as a listener. The end result is what matters, so arrive at that finished product in whatever manner seems to work for you.

[RayMan]

Listen to the music Dream Theater creates. You can't compose such music when you have the vocal lines first. The music is ALWAYS what they come up with first. The lyrics are written at the end, but I guess that the vocal melodies are part of the songwriting.
Yeah, I know! That's exactly what I thought as well. He said he had read it somewhere, don't know.. I've always been used to composing the music first, and adding the vocal lines after, so I couldn't quite understand how DT would be able to do it the other way around. That would have been very hard;)

[RayMan]

It's possible to go both ways. Some of my favorite material that I've written has been done:

-Music first, vocals after the fact, lyrics to go with written vocal melody
-Music first, lyrics second, vocal melody to go with lyrics
-Vocal melody first, music and lyrics written to go with that
-Lyrics first, melody written to go with that, music added after the fact


It can happen any way you want it to. Just let the creativity flow and do what feels right. No one method is right/wrong and no one method will yield better results. Some people are better one way than the other and that's fine. Some people can do it any way they feel like and that's equally cool. In the end, it's all music, and you don't experience the writing process as a listener. The end result is what matters, so arrive at that finished product in whatever manner seems to work for you.

That's a good point. What have seemed to work best for me is to compose the music first, and then either write the vocal melody or the lyrics, and in the end complete the third part (lyrics if I added the vocal melody first, or vocal melody if I added the lyrics first). I think it would be hard, at least for me, to come up with i.e. -Lyrics first, melody written to go with that, music added after the fact. But like you said, the end result is what matters!:)

[merijn]

Music creation can me mathmatical. There is a system which shows you automatically all the possible chords and the chords that can be put after the previous one. It's composing as a robot, but it doesn't sound less. This is great when having no inspiration. This system is based on scales.

[Sandro]

Hi guys!
I was just wondering how you write your songs in your band. A friend of mine told me that DT comes up with the vocal-line BEFORE they make the actual music... Jordan, is this correct? When writing in a band, do you have a certain process for each time you write a song. If that's the case, how is your process (step by step)? Looking forward to reading the replies from you, my fellow musicians! Thank you!
Raymond



Well.... usually my band just thinks of however we want the song to sound..and what sorts of moods...then, the guitarist and I begin to come up with some kind of riffs or whatever... later, we figure out what we can do with the things we created...put them in order and chenge them around a little, and jam with those things until we've it down flat. Much later, our lyrics are written

[Grey Loki]

Music creation can me mathmatical. There is a system which shows you automatically all the possible chords and the chords that can be put after the previous one. It's composing as a robot, but it doesn't sound less. This is great when having no inspiration. This system is based on scales.

Got a link?

:P

[Athox]

I'd like to see that too. The link that is.

[Piranha]

He said a system, not a program. I don't think he's talking about a program, if that's what you guys want a link to.

[Farren]

Err, people without 'inspiration' can keep their 'music' to themselves. I saw something a couple years ago about a group studying specific musical patterns that sound 'good' to people in general, basically as a marketing tool for music in the future.

[Athox]

I think that's what he meant, and that's what I would like to see :P

A chart or something... unless the chords are just basic. Those patterns I already know.

[Farren]

I'm saying it's a horrible thing. But I guess it's what worthless dime-a-dozen theory hacks need.

[ChrisMcCoy]

I'm a messy songwriter.
Though I usually come up with a melody line and build around it, sometimes what I write doesn't end up being the chorus, but merely a piece of an intro or a bridge. From there, if that's where it ends up, there becomes this whole challenge of working around it and finding the missing pieces. Lyrics I don't do at all. I'm just no good at it. Back in 92 when I was working on material for the Intuition CD (still available on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/INTUITION-Turn-it-on-GREAT-MELODIC-HARDROCK-CD_W0QQitemZ4791958619QQcategoryZ307QQssPageNameZW DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
), I was able to collaborate directly with the singer and guitarist, and hand off the finished ideas to the rhythm section to complete. That was a luxury.

[Piranha]

I think that's what he meant, and that's what I would like to see :P

A chart or something... unless the chords are just basic. Those patterns I already know.

I'd like to see those too, then.

[merijn]

Wow, you guys never used it?. So, it's basically showing you every option you have. For instance, you start a song in Eb, the Ebmaj7 chord, and let the scale be Eb ofcourse. Then there is a list of possible options to decide whatever chords ''can'' come after that one. It means, that by picking chords that are in the schedule/scale you will always have something that will sound good.

Let's keep it easy, Cmaj scale C D E F G A B C, in chords that would be:

Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bø (semi-deminished) and Cmaj7 (ofcourse 7th's are optional)
Now you give those chords a number which is common material. I II III IV V VI VII. Now you can write down random numbers and it will match. You should experiment with this, in other scales too. And you can always mix the Major scale up with the minor paralel, to add something special.


Edit: You can make it as advanced as you like, with added notes.

[merijn]

Err, people without 'inspiration' can keep their 'music' to themselves. .

I guess you're not very professional then. Sometimes as a composer you have to deliver a product within 2 weeks. You can't force inspiration, but you could use theory. Also, I believe that songwriting must be done with the ear, absolutely! But a fantasy has it's limits. And often, this method can show you new directions which sometimes you will remember for the next time.

[Piranha]

Wow, you guys never used it?. So, it's basically showing you every option you have.

Yeah, now I thought you had a program that did everything automaticly or something.

[merijn]

Oh I see. Well a program could be made though.

[Farren]

Sorry, music as purely a 'product' sucks.

[merijn]

Sorry, music as purely a 'product' sucks.

Agreed, but it's reality.

[Awake]

Sorry, music as purely a 'product' sucks.If you want a career in music, then sometimes you have to. Even people who have really fun jobs have to do work that is formulaic, sucky and boring. I work in computers, and sometimes the work is really fun and interesting, but other times it's just grindingly dull and intensive work. The same goes for quite literally everyone - even the people with the best jobs: see, e.g., The Supreme Court Justice & "Boring" Cases, 4 Green Bag 2d 401 (http://greenbag.org/Richards%20Boring%20Cases.pdf) (2001).

You can snarl and roll your eyes all you like, but as a previous commenter pointed out, if you have a choice between occaisionally resorting to formulaic composition and, um, eating (or, worse yet, getting a day job), I think I know which way you'll jump. :)

[Farren]

I know music is the livelihood of a lot of people, but I find it hard to believe that all the people who responded positively to programs or charts to help you write music that 'sounds good' are actually professional musicians whose only job and means of sustenance is writing and playing music. Therein lies my problem with it.