I play more like Petrucci than Rudess...

[LDGuy]

This is a bit worrying for me, but i think generally i play much more like Petrucci in terms of styling and solo structure/licks (oh god how i hate that word), than Rudess. I dont know why this is, but i reckon it's probably to do with my board. It's not a workstation so i really cant create anything that even comes near to the sounds Rudess gets, and plus his technique is a lot more than mine. But even in solos i tend to stick to close-together notes and play them fast like a guitarist would do, and i dont think this is good for a keyboardist. But i reckon a lot of it sounds really good, it's just coming from the wrong instrument (lol). What do you guys reckon to this?

Here's me playing the opening riff to ITNOG messing around with guitar patches. It sounds pretty close doesn't it... (although i did fluff a bit of it, it was only one take)

http://rapidshare.de/files/3329064/ITNOG.mp3.html

[Omega Monkey]

I havent heard the clip yet, but Im guessing it has nothing to do with your gear.

More likely, it has to do with the music you listen to. Lot's of keyboardists in the prog metal genre do a lot of guitar emulation stuff, Derek, Jens, Jordan, etc... Basically, they all got that from Jan Hammer who was doing it back in the early 70s (sort of a mixing of 60s jazz organ and 70s rock guitar styles).

So the solution is to listen to more keyboard players who are so "guitaristic" in their phrasing.

To that end I would recommend checking out:

Chick Corea (the best ever, who basically nobody can touch)
Patrick Moraz (Corea's evil twin)
Rick Wakeman
Keith Emerson
Keith Jarrett
Bernie Worrell
David Sancious
Herbie Hancock
Jimmy Smith
George Duke
Tony Banks
Joe Zawinul
Tom Coster
Larry young
Rick Wright
Tomas Bodin
Lyle Mays
Gregg Allman
Dave Stewart (National Health/Bruford, NOT the Eurythmics guy)

That should get you off to a pretty good start. Basically listen to a lot of music where the guitar isnt the focus and typically the other instruments will phrase more "naturally" (ie more conventional to that instrument). Heck, even when I play guitar (I also play keys) I dont always end up sounding like a guitarist because I am listening to so many keyboardists, sax players, violinists, etc...

[DT4L]

i dont nescesarilly think that thats bad is it? i have noticed that to some degree in my own playing because before i heard of dream theater about 1 year ago pretty much all i listened to was joe satriani so i started playing "guitary" sounding solos and stuff... my old piano teacher always told me to try and emulate the phrasing of saxaphone playing, is that any good do you think?

[hephiroth]

honestly, if you really want to be original, don't think about the boundaries of "what my instrument should sound like."

play from your heart, and just let your instrument, whether it piano, guitar, sax, or whatever else be simply a medium for conveying your musical ideas.

don't fall into these pre-determined categories of what you should and should not do.

if you want to play your keyboard like a guitar, GO FOR IT

and i sound like a weirdo.

-jeff-

[Liquid Shadow]

How a keyboard sounds in comparison to a guitar, sax, violin, tuba, or anything else should really be just about the sound. The rest of it...phrasing, note choice, etc. is just a product of style, not the particular instrument. There are also things like bends that are limited to certain instruments, but that has very little effect on the overall style.


So don't think its a bad thing that your style sounds close to the style of one guitarist. I don't sound like Rudess at all (especially when it comes to solos), and we both play keyboard. Why? Because of different styles.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Certain instruments make certain types of patterns and phrasing easier than others though, so it's more than just the sound. I'm not even sure sound is even that important anymore, when someone like Matt Guillory can almost duplicate Petrucciesque tones.

[Georges]

It's not just a matter of timber. Keyboardists have other means of creating tension (e.g. arpeggios, etc.) than guitarists, and as the formers' sound will never completely reach the expressiveness of a guitar (unless you are a lucky owner of an OASYS), it is also good like that, otherwise we'd end up as being a bad guitar clone.

I guess the advantage of being a keyboardist is the possibility to clone other instruments, however, it's not really cloning, for in the end what will happen is that you will have your own "keyboardish" style. Someone less experienced may say "oh that sounds like a guitar", a guitarist may say "I'm not really sure what it is but it does not sound like a guitar".

If you want to sound more like a keyboardist, you should also listen more to the solos performed by:

- Jan Hammer (I'd recommend anything from Miami Vice, for it is easy listening and yet a very good example of what he did)
- Jean-Michel Jarre (in particular the Chronology and Revolution albums)
- the keyboardist(s) of Pink Floyd ("Wish you were", etc.) and alike
- keyboardists playing hammond organ (for that's a completely different approach to soloing; for a first listening, you may want to check out Kevin Moore's solo on 6:00; BTW, don't forget JR's hammond solos on LTE/LTE2 as well as SFAM; I almost forgot to mention John Lord ...)

Then again, playing a hammond organ sound on any synth and playing on a real hammond organ (with its easy flying keys) are two different ballparks, for your style will radically change ...

To notice the difference: let someone play your keyboard solos on guitar - it will sound really different.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Someone less experienced may say "oh that sounds like a guitar", a guitarist may say "I'm not really sure what it is but it does not sound like a guitar".

In some ways it seems that we are relatively easily pleased. A good example is the thread on emulating JR's Moogish lead on Octavarium. There are at least half a dozen emulations, all sounding wildly different from each, yet all having the same sort of sound, if that makes any sense. But not one actually fools me into thinking the timbre matches that of JR's. Most sound emulations, whether here, in VA demos, or even guitar amp modeling, does not sound like the real thing. What many seem to think is 99% of the sound to me sounds more like 80%.

[Liquid Shadow]

It's not just a matter of timber. Keyboardists have other means of creating tension (e.g. arpeggios, etc.) than guitarists


That's all just a question of technical mastery. I'm sure that most keyboardists would have trouble playing Allan Holdsworth's arpeggio patterns. I also find the "eg arpeggios etc" example quite weak. Is that the only example you have?

Rule of thumb: etc. is often short for "I can't think of anything else," especially in cases like this where arpeggios are just as common on keyboard as they are on guitar.


and as the formers' sound will never completely reach the expressiveness of a guitar (unless you are a lucky owner of an OASYS), it is also good like that, otherwise we'd end up as being a bad guitar clone.



I disagree. A piano, electric piano, organ, synth lead, or a freaking chime bell patch can be just as expressive as a guitar. What does a guitar have going for it that a keyboard instrument lacks? Vibrato? Bends? Dynamics? All of these are quite common for keyboardists. On the other hand, we have tricks like filters and aftertouch to control the sound and add more expressiveness. But does that make our instrument more expressive? Guitarists can use effect pedals to similarly warp their sounds in real time.


In the end, expressiveness comes down to the player. You could put SRV and me on the same guitar through the same rig and he would sound a lot more emotional, because I suck. You could put a novice behind the piano and then but Chick Corea back there, and Corea is going to sound far more expressive. It's all about the player.

Who is more expressive between Corea and SRV? I don't know, but my van is more bannana than your cat.