Writing music - Have a hard time doing it?

[Enigma™]

I sure do. I've been sitting here for about 3 hours plinking away on my Kurzweil, messing with different sounds, going into Sonar and throwing in some random notes to try and get something meaningful from it, but I'm having the hardest time getting something coherent together.
I don't know what approaches some of you take but I'm stuck. I can think up little riffs but nothing signifigant. I can thing up chord changes but they're too basic and boring...

I know you have to suck before you can become good but seriously - I can't get ANY motivation on how to write music by myself... I can when other people are working with me - ideas just POUR out because the idea's not my own and I'm just adding to it but give me an idea to start and... no go.

I'm just really frustrated and wanted to see what techniques everyone out there uses when trying to write music :)

[Farren]

Smoke some weed. It's worked for decades of musicians before us.

[aquatarkus]

I think you should get some books in composition and songwriting, there are some good ones out there. Weed will just damage your brain.

[Liquid Shadow]

Sample other people's music and add a "cool beat" to it, then "play" (or rap) some boring, stupid crap over it. It'll make you millions, just like those incredibly innovative rap artist(s) that sampled Crazy Train!


YEAY-AH BOI. HOLLA.

[Farren]

Weed will just damage your brain.

Didn't realize there were parts of the world that still think that :P

[Enigma™]

Didn't realize there were parts of the world that still think that :P

Without turning this into a flame war - because that's what it'll become if I let out my real feelings about it - it's irrevelant.

If I need "something" to write music, then there's something wrong. I'd like to be able to create something out of nothing but I guess my biggest roadblock is that anything I make sounds like something someone else has already done and I don't like that.
I want to write music like Alex Argento - if you haven't heard his stuff, you REALLY should. He's got a new CD coming out soon called "Ego" and from what I've heard of it already, it's awesome.

Anyway, the music is kind of a fusion type music... and I just can't get it. I can't get decent chord changes, etc..
I can do melodies but then when I try to put a relevant backing on it, it sounds crappy. Then there's no structure to the songs, etc..

And then I don't know where to start exactly either. I guess I'll just keep recording stuff and attempting to put chord changes together and eventually hit something neat.

Or maybe I need to step away from the keyboard and just write what I hear in my head. I have PP so it's easy enough for me to just walk away and hear what something sounds like without a keyboard there. It's just getting something cool, figuring it out and writing it down...

I wish it were all that easy.

I'll keep at it and if I have anything neat, I'll post it here eventually for some help with it. :)

[Farren]

I really wasn't that serious with my first post anyway ;) My real thoughts about writing are, either you've got it or you don't. (I don't mean you have to be born with it, but that it comes and goes.) Yeah, not too helpful. Nothing to encourage the spark to reignite like listening to a good CD for the first time though. Books on composition... I don't know, doesn't seem to encourage originality.

[aquatarkus]

You can´t learn to compose from a book, but you´ll get the techniques to develop your ideas into something greater. So your orginality won´t go away, but you´ll learn to make the most of your ideas. And it´s really a creative process developing your own ideas.

[Isaari]

Having difficulties. Yes, for sure. I think it is part of the process.

For me it works better to leave keys aside for a day or two and
do something what would make one creative. Do something you enjoy
much and relaxes you. I study arts and poets and that gets me in the mood.
When you get inspiration you´ll get it done. Can´t force it.
It is given to us from somewhere anyway, like from a muse.
Aahh you have to be good to your muse on high ivory pedestal
give out anything everything... blood of your heart

If it were easy, well then everybody would master it when only hundreds
in millions can

What comes to weed... If you check out Jazz played in late 50s
and early 60s and some movie music too in America especially
it is all played under influence to get some mood,spirit and tension.
And you can hear it. They played it to perfection then

[7of9]

I have written a complete Rockopera for my "Performing Musician" study (dont know how it's called in English) and I have hard times too. I wanted to write 75 minutes of music and that's really a lot !
I get the lyrics from my partner in crime and I have to write the music. At first I began with saying the lyrics and getting the rhytm of it. Next I created a melody and added the chords. Last step is arranging the whole thing for band.
I have a lot of help from my composing teacher at the conservatory and het recommanded the book "fundamentals of musical composition" by Arnold Schonberg. It's really classical but a lot of the techniques are used in populair music. Good luck with it !

greetings Marco

[rifaa]

Worst thing with the weed-approach is the depression when you realize that what seemed like the best tune EVER written while "on" turns out to be just all too average...

I agree that having / getting as much theoretical knowledge as possible definitely helps composing something. Sure, it won´t create anything original by itself, but it increases one´s repertoire and gives a much better chance to really create something good. It´s just a question of using all those tools for you (I really wish I knew more about composing theory, I feel it would be much easier for me to create something then).
This seems to me to be be similar to the technique question. Good technique alone won´t make you any good, but it sure helps if you can actually play what you´re hearing in your mind.
Anyway, it´s probably sad but true that you will not come up with something good every time you sit down to create something, no matter how good you are, how much you know about theory, how much weed you smoked... Then you can only keep trying and wait for the kiss of the muse...
just my 2ct

[Prodigy4898]

Enigma....I am 17 years old and only took lessons for a month, but quit because I hated playing music other people made. I could hear better music in my mind...more complex music...music that gratified my senses. So basically, I said "Screw this, I'm writing my own music." The first thing I do when composing my own music is decide what Style I want to try and play. Jazz, Classical, Prog, Rock...try to choose a genre that you feel like playing when the inspiration hits you. Then...try to decide what "mood" you want the music to portray...happy, depressing, slow, fast, etc. Now...get in that mindset...try to get in that mood you are feeling....The music should start to compose itself...you should hear the chords beginning to form in your mind. For me, composing music is a very psychological process...I developed an "ear" for music. Everyone has an ear for music...just some of those people dont develop it.
You used the words "Basic and boring" to describe some of your ideas. That, to me, is a sign that your "ear" for music is starting to develop alot. You need more satisfaction when you hear music. That happens to me ALL the time (thats why I started listening to DT :), So...the music that I play...I start to develop it more and more...make it more complex and hard to play but make the sound and melody blend together. Use as many chords as possible to bring out that mood you feel.
How would you "use as many chords as possible"? What I do, is compose "Sections" to my music. I dont write them down though...I just practice them over and over. Intro ,(transition), part 1,(transition), part 2,(transition), climax(transition), part 3,(transition), conclusion. That's kind of the mindset I have when trying to write my own music. Try not to think of the music as something with an Intro, body, and conclusion. It's NOT a research paper we're writing haha. Try to think of music as a roller coaster that should take a listener's ear for a ride when you play it. Then it should come back to the start.

I tried to compact the information about how I write music Enigma...Although I don't think I succeeded lol. Hope I helped give you some ideas on how to approach composing your own music though! Good luck man!

[reinaldo13]

every night i sit in front of my piano or keyboards and just play something (just improvising). Pretty much everytime i get to play something i really like, then i record it or write it down. Usually they are like 10 sec riffs or some interesting melodies (no more than 20 sec).

After a month or so... i sit down and start listening to all that material i recorded/wrote, then i take a peace of paper and write stuff like: "this part should be with this other one"...i create something like a big Puzzle, putting peaces together and stuff like that.

Then i find the right key or time signature and build something like a structure. (verses, bridges, chorus, outros, etc)

That's preatty much the way i compose, but honestly i wish i had more time in my life to do that 24 hours a day.

Hope it helps!

Rei.

[=DoG_oF_WaR=]

Didn't realize there were parts of the world that still think that :P


HAHA right on dude!

[ZuL]

...but I guess my biggest roadblock is that anything I make sounds like something someone else has already done and I don't like that.

Yea, i completely agree with you there.....but for me, it's more like "fearing if what i just created is already out there somewhere" lol

It really, really bugs me and I completely understand how you feel. Furthermore, i'm not blessed with any training whatsoever.... self-learnt all the way and it adds to the frustration!!

On the other hand, taking breaks for a day or two helps.....and when you get back on it, just play whatever u hear in your head....just start simple and work your way up from there. Dont rush through when composing, just take as long as you feel it needs to be. In other words, having created something "basic and boring" aint a bad thing. Well, this is what i believe in anyway, lol

Music is great but sometimes it just kills us....maybe that's why we're all in love with it......like a hot girl/guy playing hard to get or something....lol

All the best!!

[Grey Loki]

I don't suppose you have any other musician friends you could get together with to have a jam session with?

Sometimes when i'm feeling a bit slow, i organise a jam at the end of the week, and we normally get some really good riffs bouncing around, which i can then take away and develop.

[Piranha]

Completely agree with Prodigy

[Enigma™]

Thanks a LOT everyone!

Progidy - YES - that's exactly what I'm talking about. I can tell what sounds good and what doesn't, but when I try and re-create it in "my own words" it's not quite the same that I'm hearing.
I've been learning to avoid just playing - I know I can play but I don't want my creative mind to be held back my any lack of technique I have. I don't want my playing to dictate what I'm writing.
Taking a break sounds like it would work - I know it's not something you can force, but there are people that do it every day when they write gingles and stuff. I know it's not the same but I can't even do THAT. I can't make something that people go "oh neat" - it seems mostly to me to be crap.
And the other thing is that when I DO finally get an idea, it doesn't progress to anything. I do have an ability to make a riff of sorts to solo over, which is fine - but a backing isn't music.
I could to 10 backings for doing leads over and they'll all sound different but when I DO finally come up with a song, it sounds like a backing instead of an actual song.
I appreciate all the help that everyone's been putting into this thread - I know for some people they're in the exact same boat as I'm in but I do want to write decent music.
The more I learn, the more I'll hand off to other people as well... so if I have any "Breakthroughs" I'll definitely share it here.
I'll probably post a couple little riffs/ideas that I had, and see if something can come of it.

Another thing though - when writing a song, does anyone sit down and write it in order? Like "Intro, verse..." and write it as you do it?
Or is it more peiced together?

Do you write it down or get ideas out on MIDI and play it to record it later?

I'm just curious about what approaches are used.

[Prodigy4898]

Well, Enigma...I divide the song into pieces and practice each part (in order). I really don't end up writing it down or using MIDI (I dont know how to use MIDI LOL)...I just commit the song to memory...All in all right now...I have about 5 songs in my head committed to memory. Each song is around 6 minutes...and I practice the songs regularly to keep them fresh and to keep improving my speed and technique. It's amazing what memorizing can do for your brain. It's a win-win situation. You never "lose" the information like you can with sheet music. And you can keep adding on if you want! It's the best method for me. If it REALLY helps....Write down the main chords on a sheet of paper...not the main notes..just the chords (kind of like guitar tabs) for reference. I did that on one occasion...and eventually memorized the whole song. Good luck Enigma. I heard your MP3 posted in the "Show it Off!" Section! Very good fast movement. However, if you don't mind a little criticism, the chords were just a LITTLE monotonous, but still sounded great!

Sincerely,
Jared

[Rosie]

It always annoys me when people say how much difficulty they have and all that... I have an extremely short attention span and bad memory. It's practically impossible for me to write solos, most of my work is improv. I can come up with nice piano bits and stuff, but I'll never remember them. If I write them down as sheet music, they'll loose their expression for me... I can't write exact time signatures and stuff, and it bemuses me as to how you can, and rather takes something of it away from me. I don't know. I just wish I could remember stuff better. I'm only fairly new at it, that's probably why.

[Georges]

To your inspiration question:

It's typical and ironical to have this kind of problem. Typical because ideas usually pop up when you are not at the piano. Ironical because you know to play so many other people's songs that it seems too hard to come up with something of your own.

The solution to this problem was provided by Jordan Rudess on his video: If this week, you learned a JR song, try to write something in JR style, if you just learned about Chick Corea, try to write something which would reflect his style. The more you do this exercise, the more the ideas and techniques which you acquired during the learning of other people's songs will become part of your style. After having acquired some songwriting experience with various styles, you will suddenly come up with something less "put me in a style category", that will be your own style.

A nice side effect to this exercise is, at least in my case, that if you decide to write a song in a specific style, sometimes, the outcome is something completely different and yet part of your own style.

One thing to keep in mind: Songwriting is learned via lots of practice, like technique or rhythm. It is not something which just comes after you have acquired a certain baggage of playing skills. As ideas do not simply come when you are on the piano, I think JR's exercise is a good way to practice songwriting skills.

To your song organisation question:

I sit down, push the record button and improvise around an idea (which either just popped up or which has been there for a long time). Afterwards, I check out what part was stronger (that would be the chorus) and which parts had a more "building" atmosphere (that would be verses, transitions, etc.). Finally, I record each part separately in order to get the song done.

[Rexx]

For years I wrote hundreds of good songs often using a little hashish.
Everyone's different, personally I get creative ideas and extreme facination using hash but weed tends to bum me out. Wierd. And worse I can not get hash for years so my song writing does suffer.
You could say bourchette. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

With digital recording on a computer I haven't done much (5 songs)
With multitrack cassette I wrote hundreds of songs using different methods.

Tape:
Smpte Sync Stripe:
I'd often play a little and decide on a tempo to stripe a tape with then I'd proceed to create tracks to that tempo.

Drum Loop Stripe:
I'd find a click or drum loop that I had ideas for and fill up a tape then I'd proceed to create tracks.

Warning CRaZi CunNucK@!
Inbetween songs I'd often amuse myself with strange sounds that segue to the next song, samples, fx, backwards fx, monkeys loosing it, women fights, crowds clapping/laughing, door knocks...sound fx. :D

Sometimes I'd accurately overdub guitar along to speech, fog horns, baby cries... Something that rubbed off on me from FZ and Vai.

Often I would approach writing differently everytime so as to get different results. [And most importantly not sound formulated!]
Drum Loop w/Guitar (as the first overdub)
Drum Loop w/Bass (as the first overdub)
Drum Loop w/Keys (as the first overdub)
Drum Loop w/guitar synth
Of course once the instruments groove I change the drum loop to something a drummer would do or it would be boring to listen to.

Nothing is etched in stone, recording methods are vast.
Start with lyrics or scribble ideas down and arrange later.
Start with a riff or a drum groove or bass part or chord progression...
Create by memory and practice it over & over.
Write everything a couple of bars at a time!

Something everone has heard of is recording short ideas. Got something that's short and sweet? Record it before you forget it and fill up an idea folder or tape. Later you can listen back and extract inspiration from your own ideas!

Writing styles:
Yep, I'm mostly metal but I write in many styles because I like more than one type of music. Pop, Prog, Classical, Jazz (I try), Comedy (!), (.)(.)
:D
Pop Metal, Thrash, Death, Requiem, Ballads, Accapella..

My experience has shown me that when I have a song with powerful hooks and good overall feel/arrangement I will often do a demo 2, then if that wasn't quite right a demo 3. Personally I can not stand to listen to mistakes in anyway on recordings because I know it quickly loses the listener's attention so I tend to perfect until I'm happy.(overdubbing) Admittedly this is where computers rule over tape so I plan on demoing on tape and doing my final demo on the computer.

Also ASD (Amazing Slow Downer) can be a godsend for those of us that have a demo but wish the tempo and/or the pitch was different. I know it saved me from having to re-record an original that I wanted faster but tuned down 1 semitone.

Long post I know but one last final thought, I've written my share of instrumentals and songs with vocals. I often get a feeling of satisfaction more with vocal songs than an instrumental although sometimes an instrumental can turn into a great vocal song. If I can get a story instead of mishmash lyric ideas and big Queen like harmonies I'm that much more pleased. ;)

[Georges]

Also ASD (Amazing Slow Downer) can be a godsend for those of us that have a demo but wish the tempo and/or the pitch was different. I know it saved me from having to re-record an original that I wanted faster but tuned down 1 semitone.

Just a note: This may have a counterproductive side in some cases, especially if the pitch or the tempo chosen are significantly different from the initial record tempo/pitch (think in 5th circles for determining close pitches). You play VERY differently when a song is slower (accents, technique, rhythm, etc.), which may produce a weird and artificial sound when increasing the speed of the song. Similarly, in a different scale you may accent differently because the mood is different, however, if you just change pitch without recording it again, you will miss those subtleties in the final result.

[Feltronc]

at first my problem was that i wanted to make very heavy songs, and because of that i ended making tons of riffs, but no melody!

then was when i decided to start composing with different melodies, and THEN adding riffs, odd times, etc.



the trouble i have now is that i have too many songs that aren't finished! everytime i come up with a new idea i start recording a new song and leaving the others behind, unfinished, i've always had that problem...

[maJ estY]

I have got the same problem as Enigma and others here, too, as I can see.

But Enigma, I bet that no composer started off composing stuff, which is complicated, so why don't you try to compose a couple of "pop"-like songs with not many chords - only verse, refrain and a bridge. If you can do that, you can go one step further, but don't try to start with something complicated.
It's like playing keyboards: Although you might be able to play some JR stuff when you're a beginner, you should not do it. ;)

[LithoJazzoSphere]

the trouble i have now is that i have too many songs that aren't finished! everytime i come up with a new idea i start recording a new song and leaving the others behind, unfinished, i've always had that problem...

I have the exact same problem. Between old Cubase VST MIDI's, tapes, stuff on my MD player/recorder, and Pro Tools, I have hundreds of ideas, but not nearly as many completed (or mostly completed) songs. Hopefully I'll be able to string stuff together more in the future.

[Sk]

I'll reveal you the only true Way to the Perfect Music Writing:

(suspence please)

Be a hundred miles away from your keyboard or anything that could allow you to remember a riff that comes into your head

If you cannot transcribe them, that's the moment when best ideas come to the faithful :)

Sad, but it's true.

[Georges]

You should get yourself an MP3 recorder then ;).

[maJ estY]

yeah, that's right, indeed :(
:)

[Stimpus]

I sure do. I've been sitting here for about 3 hours plinking away on my Kurzweil, messing with different sounds, going into Sonar and throwing in some random notes to try and get something meaningful from it, but I'm having the hardest time getting something coherent together.
I don't know what approaches some of you take but I'm stuck. I can think up little riffs but nothing signifigant. I can thing up chord changes but they're too basic and boring...

I know you have to suck before you can become good but seriously - I can't get ANY motivation on how to write music by myself... I can when other people are working with me - ideas just POUR out because the idea's not my own and I'm just adding to it but give me an idea to start and... no go.

I'm just really frustrated and wanted to see what techniques everyone out there uses when trying to write music :)


WTF!?!? you explained EXACTLY how it is with me...to the last word....hmmmm i think i need some help too!

[ChrisMcCoy]

This is going to sound like a rather simplistic solution to what appears to be a complex problem, but I'm going to weigh in with my 2 cents here.
I think you should head over to your local electronics store and pick up a small battery powered digital voice recorder...why ?? Because you're going to find that particular melodies will hit you when you least expect them too, in the car on the way somewhere when you are far away from your gear, in the middle of the night, or even when you're out somewhere walking around. Unfortunately those ideas often get lost because there's no way to write them down or record them. With the small voice recorder, you can stop what you're doing at any given time and sing the melody or idea into it. Save for later. Doesn't have to be pitch perfect, just has to save the idea so you can access it when you need it most, which is right now, in front of your gear...
Hope this helps.
Chris.

[Feltronc]

yeah, i bought a voice recorder for that same purpose

[Awake]

I wrote the below a year ago today, and because within days of this post, my wife and I bought a house, I've gotten preceisely zero steps closer to getting it done, lol...
I'm in the process of affirming that statement, and putting my money where my mouth is. I'm starting to plan out a concept album at the moment. The central theme is that all power is fleeting and all time is borrowed; those ideas will be fleshed out in four songs, three drawing on history (the French Revolution, the British Empire, and an epic covering the fall of Rome and the preservation of the knowledge of the ancients through the dark ages by the monastaries, as fictionalized by Asimov in the classic Foundation series), and the fourth covering the concept from a more philosophical point of view. Musically, I suppose it will draw on exactly who you'd expect: Simon & Garfunkel, Yes, Genesis, Sky, REM (specifically, AFtP), Pink Floyd, Richard Wright, Roger Waters, Tori Amos, Mike Oldfield, Toto, early Dream Theater (1992-1997), Peter Gabriel (in particular, So), Miles Davis, Benny Goodman, Return to Forever, Hector Berlioz, Antonio Vivaldi, Benjamin Britten, Richard Straus and Gustav Holst. I'm sure other influecnes will work their way in there too, but that's my "inspiration corner".

I've considered myself a reasonably proficient musician for probably five years, having been a student of music (on the piano, and tenor and bass guitars) since I was 6. By comparison to several people making a living from music, I'm very proficient; by comparison to many others, I'm laughably bad. So I like to think of myself as okay - but for me, actually writing music has always been very, very difficult. Fortunately, we're now at a point where the technology is available for me to be able to piece together and record ideas fairly easily, and so it becomes a matter of creating a conceptual framework, mapping the flow of ideas and moods in a piece, and then writing the music to that map. In many ways, it's more like writing a soundtrack than what most people would picture as "writing songs" (I can hear fans of punk music or metal recoiling in horror to the idea of writing a concept album about the sack of Rome, where the ideas and lyrics at least partially predate and determine the musical content), but unless I want to play nothing but improvised melodies and grooves over and behind other people's compositions (which is fun, but unsatisfying), it's the only way I can do that.

The older I get, the less interested I am in music that isn't about anything.


When it's done, I'm going to need someone to do the sleeve art. The brief will be real simple: I don't care what media you use, paint, photos, whatever; but if it looks like it's ever been near photoshop or any other computer art program, it'll be rejected out of turn. I'm so incredibly sick of modern sleeve art and CGI, so I want a sleeve that is organic and real and reflects the artist's visual take on the themes I'm exlporing musically).

[Stimpus]

but then again people into punk music *generally* and i don't want to burn my fingers here, but generally aren't too bright lol therfore the thought of a histroy lesson in a song frightens them. They just want to bang heads, act like a dick and look stupid hehe

[Deceit]

Just a quick comment. In this period I feel very weak and can't concentrate on anything, not even on sounds. I mean, I have more and more years to come to write good - or bad - music, to put myself on a score and write for my own pleasure.
I think that - like Dream Theater themselves do - the key is analitically listening to music you want - or you feel - to be influenced by. For example, Dream Theater have Pink Floyd and Rush record, as far as I remember, in their "inspiation" corner. This doesn't mean copying. This means mixing in your very own musical brew a lot of different styles and songs.
I'm not AT ALL a composer, I really suck at it. My chord progressions are terribly linear and regular, I can't even write decent solos over a couple of scales.
Uh and, guess you know preset sounds and new gear (GAS rocks :D) are very inspiring!
Have fun!
Deceit.