Why are we keyboardists slowly dying out in the rock/metal world???

[Prodigy4898]

In today's vast and competitive musical world of rock/metal...keyboardists seem to be in less numbers than guitarists, drummers, and bassists. Why would this be? I think that keyboardists are an ESSENTIAL part to rock because they can put forth melodic backgrounds as well as solos that take a listener's ear for a ride. However, todays modernistic rock world consists HEAVILY of Grungy sounding guitars and crazy drummers...the music seems a little too heavy and monotonous to me. I don't even know how these bands like Korn and Cradle of Filth get any fame for musicianship...I asked around my school why we keyboardists aren't as widely used as guitarists or drummers, and people replied with answers such as: "they sound corny", or "they add video-game-like elements to music". I personally think these people have no taste in music... anyone have any feedback as to why keyboardists aren't as heavily used in today's modern rock/metal bands?

[Rosie]

Err, I don't think keyboards are essential to Rock music, though I do wish they'd be used a lot more. I don't think many instruments are essential to anything, really, as long as it sounds good.

[Tusker]

I agree with Rosie. There is nothing that is truly essential, as long as it sounds good. Many good musicians play a variety of instruments.

There are lots of reasons why keyboards are not prominent in rock music. Among them:

1) Keyboardists have not focused their creativity. They have copied other instruments instead of forging their own voice.

2) Keyboards are ergonomically non-aggressive. And they have cultural associations with the establishment. Not very good for an aggresive counter-culture genre.

3) Keyboards do take awhile to learn. And they can be more expensive. (ok, in some ways).

4) Keyboards are somewhat distant from the music. Being able to see real strings, and the way one plays them, makes an experience more real.

I think some of this is changing. But rock music is becoming less attractive (to me), even as keyboardists appear to be having a revival in it. Certainly nothing like the keyboard boom of the early 1970's prog-rock, nor the synth fetish of early 1980's new age, but a decent revival nontheless. I'm looking out for a new genre that will incorporate hip-hop, jazz, and rock. And it won't be a sub-genre of any of them. Turntables, guitars and keyboards. Laptops, loops and drummers. Guerilla theatre and poetry, along with a drum jam. At least in a context like that maybe people will talk about real life instead of mystic escapism.

Thanks for reading my rant. Sorry if I'm a dissenter. I think rock is boring, these days. It has become more corporate than my Starbucks frequent user card. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I've listened to a surfeit of it. The appetite has sickened and died. Your mileage may vary.

Jerry

[Liquid Shadow]

If by "today's" bands you mean what is really popular, then I don't know why you're looking for keyboards in that music at all (or at least anything notable...they do get used). I can think of very few rock/metal bands that used keyboards as an essential part of the music that wound up being very popular.


But, if by "today's" bands you just mean rock/metal in general, then I would say you're simply looking in the wrong places. In what I've seen, keyboards seem to be making a comeback in rock/metal...if you're looking at the right bands.




As for your claims about the instrument:
-They can put forth melodic backgrounds...this is not limited to keyboards.
-Solos that take a listener's ear for a ride...again, not limited to keyboards. I would also go out on a limb and say that this is very unoriginal of keyboardists, considering that a great deal of soloing is based on imitating other instruments...whether that be guitar-like synth solos that pitch bend like a guitar, bluesy electric piano or organ solos that use slides and grace notes and licks that originally came from blues guitarists, ect. Soloing is not limited to keyboards, and soloing on keyboards is usually just an attempt (to one extent or another) to do what other instruments have done.

[nismael]

I don't have much time to answer, but I totally disagree with Tusker.

Rock/metal keyboardist have some of the most creative minds I heard (just think JR, Emerson, Pinella, Warmen, ...). And they didn't copy other instruments?!?!?!??! You talk about soloing? Well solos are present in any single instrument, even the flute. Of course a keyboard solo will sometimes look like other instruments solo, as a guitar solo could look like an harp solo for a professional harpist. I dunno, but there are sure to be ressemblances. You talk about emulating guitars? Well that's just a sound and you rarely see keyboard sounds emulating a guitar in popular Rock/Metal bands. What are you talking about then? I'd really like to know...

Your argument 2 can make sense for a real deep-to-the-bone metal fan who prefers to hear noise than music, but for an open minded listener who loves many styles, keyboard background is not an issue.

Your argument three, with a little mutation, makes sense. There are just not as much good keyboardists than guitarists/drummers/basist and finding one that can fit a rock/metal band is not easy.

With rotating stands, tilting keyboards and video projection, its not a problem anymore to show the audience what is played on the keyboard and make it an intense experience. Which makes your argument 4 irrelevant.

I hear too some people saying that keyboard remembers them too much of video games music and that's what keep them away from music that includes some. Other thinks it sounds cool because of that. Thats a personal taste. Unfortunately, those people are usually the kind that can't even distinguish a keyboard from a guitar when played together in a song, as far as my "neighborhood" goes (I remember someone in particular when I say that). They just have no knowledge of keyboards.

Btw, Cradle of Filth have a keyboardist, and I think they have a really unique and complete sound (and way to dress too) and that's what make them popular. You make me think, I haven't listen to them in a long time! Tonight is the night to renew with their music!!!!

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!! (yelling cradle style)

[hephiroth]

well, if you're talking about popular rock music, keyboards are making a large comeback right now, just in a different way than you'd hear in a band like DT. they've really become the best friend of many a producer, especially in the studio, where they get used to really add that extra bit of depth or polish to an otherwise bland rock song.

of course, that sort of usage is not give the keyboard a PROMINENT role like jordan rudess has or others like him, but finding a mainstream album without keyboard on it these days is pretty tough (not to say it doesn't happen, but they get used more than people give them credit for).

what is becoming less and less visible is the keyboardist as a main member of the band. i'm actually in a band that isn't a prog band (we're a mainstream rock band), and we use keyboards as a main instrument. of course, this means i'm pretty limited to piano, elec. piano, organ and string sounds, but what's wrong with that? i can always get all my synth-y ideas out at home making my own songs.

anyway, back to the topic, i think one of the reasons you don't see as many prominent keyboardists in mainstream rock music is that it's hard to find a really good keyboardist that doesn't want to be playing crazy synth stuff because so many people that really get into keyboards like to make wacky sounds, which just doesn't cut it in the current pop rock market. (of course, a lot of the good keyboardists probably get jobs working with beyonce or britney or rap acts because those styles have less rules about what sounds are acceptable).

i guess it boils down to: if you put a blatant synth sound in a rock song, you're immediately dating yourself thanks to the 70s and 80s heavy use of synthesizers in rock. that's why even people like JR have had to continually reinvent their sounds. look at Train of Thought--jordan is using all sorts of cutting sounds that blend with heavy guitar and stuff because if he was using 80s type synth sounds, it would sound like a cheese-fest to today's audiences. and that's in a band like DT where keys are much more accepted.

keyboards haven't disappeared, they've just evolved

-jeff-

[MoonDark]

I think that the keyboardist is dissapearing from bands for many reasons.

a ) Keyboards ( when u go more professional or pseudo pro ) , are HEAVY, YEAH, HEaVY! . I have a triton extreme, a Waldorf Xtk, my amp, a V ultimate stand, y beringer pedal, a roland AX-7. I thank god for having a Subaru legacy station, because I can fit all my stuff there... but if I didin't ... HOW?! . You can always say " Drummers carry more stuff " , but the drummer is used to that from all his life. Keyboardists often start with light weight keyboards. like X5D , XP10 , XP30 , Casios, Small Yamahas , etc... But then things are growing in size and in weight.. and they have Cases! , Yeah cases. Btw , keyboards are also more fragile that drums or most of other instruments..
( btw , I can't imagine those guys using K2600 XS, going to a rehearsal and taking all the room space , )
All this phenomenon, starts making they keyboardist to get away from rock, and start looking into jazz, less gear is used, and you can always play in the clubs pianos , or use 1 stage piano pc2X , and thats it, far easier.
The keyboardist is less of a "Rocker" of course there are exepcions , I know it , but mostly, keyboardist are very calm ppl.

2) Keyboardist is most of the time , the guy with most music knowledge in the band.. so many times , there is a poing where he does not want to play just chords, pads, strings any more, he has learned a lot over the years , and he chooses between 3 options
a) leave the band , work in home studio
b) leave the band , make his own band , where he writes everything
c) Both

So maybe thats why , rocker keyboardists, are a few,

I have some theories of why are a few , but I dont have enough time to write it.

[Tusker]

Nismael,

Thanks for your post. I seem to have touched a nerve. We can agree to disagree, but I'd like to explain that some of the apparent differences between us may not truly exist.


Rock/metal keyboardist have some of the most creative minds I heard (just think JR, Emerson, Pinella, Warmen, ...). And they didn't copy other instruments?!?!?!??!

I didn't accuse them of not being creative, simply not focusing it. Read my post again. Spreading it out over a gazillion sounds. Keith Emerson doing piccolo trumpets and carribean drum patterns, is a very good example. It's not that the music is uninteresting. It's that it sends a message of an instrument that does many things, but doesn't develop an identity (brand, image) of what the instrument sounds like.


Your argument 2 can make sense for a real deep-to-the-bone metal fan who prefers to hear noise than music, but for an open minded listener who loves many styles, keyboard background is not an issue.


In certain cultures, the piano is associated with being arty and cultural. Often parents are more concerned about seeing the girls learn piano and boys their baseball. In Texas I see a great deal of this kind of stereotyping. Maybe the issue that there aren't enough open minded people out there?

With rotating stands, tilting keyboards and video projection, its not a problem anymore to show the audience what is played on the keyboard and make it an intense experience. Which makes your argument 4 irrelevant.


Perhaps you are right. But how many bars have had video projection over the last 40 years? Forgive me if I offended you. I love this instrument. That's one of the reasons I'm working to master it. It's also why I like to help those people who want to master it.

Jerry

[nismael]

hehe no dude you didn't offense me at all. I just didn't agree with you, but it doesn't mean I hate you and I wasn't like "What the fuck this guy is talking about fucking ass hole if I could rip his ass...".

I really can't reply for too long now but I still disagree with you on some points. I'll explain later.

Nice day to all!

Edit : I know I may sound harsh sometimes (I think I can use harsh here? just not sure anymore). I should work on that point.

[Semmi78]

Playing 'keyboard' has a very negative taste here in Holland. People expect you play 'de vogeltjesdans' (aka birddance) or Andre Rieu kind of 1 click-whole-band-music. I preferably speak of playing synths. But then again questions like 'oh, you mean synthesizer greatest hits kind of music?????' are thrown at me.
Unfortunately when speaking of playing piano, there isn't even more to talk about then only defending yourself for not playing Beethoven, Chopin Liszt all the time. ' What the heck are you playing then????' ' Progrock??? You mean Toto? Metallica S&M?'

It is obvious that the creative element of keyboards (soloing, creating complex sounds) in progrock, symphonic or whatever you call it, is not known by 90 % of the people since this kind of music is not known by 90 % of the people and maybe only 60 % of these people know the complexitiy of the instrument.

In a nutshell: Playing keyboard is still boring to most of the people.

But it is also a fact the keyboards have a very important role in music but are most of the times put in the background. think about it: The famous livegig of a rockstar were you can hear the keyboards, but the keyboardist himself has his place backstage, whereas the rest of the band is onstage.

Furthermore keyboards definitely don't have that rockstar-attitude as guitars, bass and drums have. It is just plain obvious that having a guitar around your neck shows much cooler. then again: Are we keyboardist really looking for this kind of recognition?

Semmi

[Alucard]

Keyboards ( when u go more professional or pseudo pro ) , are HEAVY, YEAH, HEaVY!...Keyboardists often start with light weight keyboards. like X5D , XP10 , XP30 , Casios, Small Yamahas , etc... But then things are growing in size and in weight..

So you judge the "professionality" of a keyboardist looking for how much heavy is the synth he is playing?
And so what do you think about keyboardists who use a light midi controller and a module?...The synth so make the keyboardist?

[Rosie]

Keyboards are bloody heavy, but that's because they need to be built strong. I can't bring my keyboard home at weekends. It's just not practical unless you have a car or live right near a bus station.

[ChrisMcCoy]

I agree with Rosie. There is nothing that is truly essential, as long as it sounds good. Many good musicians play a variety of instruments.

There are lots of reasons why keyboards are not prominent in rock music. Among them:

1) Keyboardists have not focused their creativity. They have copied other instruments instead of forging their own voice.

2) Keyboards are ergonomically non-aggressive. And they have cultural associations with the establishment. Not very good for an aggresive counter-culture genre.

3) Keyboards do take awhile to learn. And they can be more expensive. (ok, in some ways).

4) Keyboards are somewhat distant from the music. Being able to see real strings, and the way one plays them, makes an experience more real.

I think some of this is changing. But rock music is becoming less attractive (to me), even as keyboardists appear to be having a revival in it. Certainly nothing like the keyboard boom of the early 1970's prog-rock, nor the synth fetish of early 1980's new age, but a decent revival nontheless. I'm looking out for a new genre that will incorporate hip-hop, jazz, and rock. And it won't be a sub-genre of any of them. Turntables, guitars and keyboards. Laptops, loops and drummers. Guerilla theatre and poetry, along with a drum jam. At least in a context like that maybe people will talk about real life instead of mystic escapism.

Thanks for reading my rant. Sorry if I'm a dissenter. I think rock is boring, these days. It has become more corporate than my Starbucks frequent user card. Maybe it's just me. Maybe I've listened to a surfeit of it. The appetite has sickened and died. Your mileage may vary.

Jerry

Jerry, You've got some really good points. Here's something to add to the fun. At my last gig, I stopped and thought to myself as I was setting up my rig...How many people give a rat's ass what comes out of my amp ? I'm enjoying the heck out of playing my Rolands and nobody out there really truly gives a bug whether my B3 patch sounds true to form but me ? Are we in this for ourselves...? That's the question that floated around inside my head about 30 minutes before we went on stage. Just before we launched into the Rolling Stones "Sympathy for the Devil" (opening number that particular night) it occurred to me that if I enjoy what I'm doing up there, and people are not booing us off the stage, then so be it. Funny thing is, I know that there are still people interested in keyboards and keyboard players in the local scene...much to my surprise on my last 2 gigs, Keyboard players came up to me between sets to check out my rig and ask questions about my gear. I can't start to tell you how good that made me feel inside. Overall, I'd say yes keyboards and keyboardists evolved, but I can also remember a time when there was no such thing as a "Workstation", and also a time when a keyboard didn't come with any loops in the presets..just plain old sounds, square, sawtooth or otherwise. It forced us all to be more creative, and the end result was that we could sit back and say, "yeah, I did that, pretty cool huh". If you ask me, it's become too easy to just:
1. Push a button.
2. Walk away and let the thing play itself.
Then who really needs people like us at all when computers and microprocessors are doing the job, completely sterile with no feeling and no stage presence.
Just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
Chris

[Stimpus]

i haven't much to add really. I once talked to somebody about why there aren't many keyboardists (in my town i am the ONLY keyboardist in any of its bands, of which there are about 30 :S), but they just said that people don't think its "cool" to play a keyboard, which totally sucks because they have no idea.
The sheer versatilitly of modern keyboards is amazing. You don't need an entire orchestra to come on stage, you just play it on the keyboard and the same withh loads and loads of sounds. this in itself surely would make people sit up and listen but they don't. people aren't bothered about sounds anymore...
I think another reason for it not being popular is it's communication with the audience. how many keyboards apart from the keytar let you walk around with it? not many. and i think thats it, you can;t move about with a keyboard, and thereofre you don't move with it. There is no on stage performance from a keybaordist and so they get classed as boring....

ahh well such is the life of a keyboardist.....

[LithoJazzoSphere]

1: Cool factor. People just don't associate keyboards with cool sounds like they do with guitars. Keyboardists are often thought of as nerdier, less agressive, etc.

2: Little crowd interaction. When you're stuck behind a rack of synths, not only can you not walk around, but you're somewhat hidden from view. Not so with guitars. The fact that many keyboard players shun devices like the AX-7 doesn't help.

3: Learning curve. It takes far longer to learn learn how to play, learn scales, etc. than it does to learn some power chords and a moveable pentatonic scale. It's also easier to twist a few knobs to get different sounds than learn synthesis and develop new sounds.

4: Cost. It costs probably around 3x as much for a keyboard of comparable quality to a guitar.

5: Size. Keyboards are much bulkier and heavier than guitars.

6: Need. In the studio, all you need is one guy to program some parts or use an arpeggiator, and then play backing tracks of it live. It doesn't really work so well for guitars and bass. Drummers have managed to edge out drum machines by sounding more realistic.

There are more, but I'll have to post them after finals when I have more time to think.

[ChrisMcCoy]

1: ...Keyboardists are often thought of as nerdier, less agressive, etc.


Wow, then things have really changed since my days of touring then....
I'd say at some point I had the cool factor working...at least my hair did :)

http://www.chrismccoymusic.biz/chris02b.jpg
http://www.chrismccoymusic.biz/chris4.gif
http://www.chrismccoymusic.biz/chris5.gif

[LithoJazzoSphere]

Well, I think you Have to be somewhat nerdy to get excited thinking about envelope generators, oscillators, low-pass filters, resonance, etc. ;) I could probably start a poll for "coolest musician" in pretty much any non-keyboard forum, and the guitarist or lead vocalist if you included them would most likely take the cake universally.

[ChrisMcCoy]

Ha ! Thanks !
The funny part is, I evolved into a much "Nerdier" person when I chopped off my hair and took a day job working with Cisco routers and Telecom equipment.
I'm a bonified card carrying member of Nerd Central at this stage of the game, but I still get out for an occaisional gig :)

[Luca_Capozzi]

Ha ! Thanks !
The funny part is, I evolved into a much "Nerdier" person when I chopped off my hair and took a day job working with Cisco routers and Telecom equipment.
I'm a bonified card carrying member of Nerd Central at this stage of the game, but I still get out for an occaisional gig :)

*listen to Telecom word and remembers 20 days of outside network unavailability due to their error and starts to cry*

AAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHH ARGHHHHH AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHHHHH

:D

[ImaX]

I must confess that I haven't read every single post, so blame me if this was said before:

All the things you mentioned were right, about the coolness-factors, size and so on...

The main problem I see are most of the keyboard players itself - I refer to arranger-keyboard-players, not to synthesizer-players. First thing I did when starting out on keyboards was to make everyone clear what's the difference between a "keyboard" and a "synthesizer", because noone knows that.

Now we have a lot of players which only push a button and let the machine run. Since it's an electronic instrument you are able to do this, and it's very sad that there are enough people who use their boards as playback-machines while calling themselves keyboardists. Since they are a) perhaps the majority and b) well known, because you find them on every party and not only on big stages.

The main view of a keyboardist is a person who inserts a disk and let the machine play. I once had the situation of some (even professional) musicians coming from next door into our rehearsing room, searching for the disk-player and then asking if I play that live, before I got any appreciation. So playing keyboards seems uncool for young people and they change to guitar - the common story: "Well, I have played keyboards once, but only for some years, then I became an evil guitarist".

I never had problems to find a band, because there are so few keyboardists that are able to play in a band. I was searching for a keyboarder to play gigs for which I don't have the time - it's really not that hard to play something like "Jump", yet I only heard few keyboardists (no pro's of course) beeing able to play the song right, and I haven't heard a single on to play the solo without failures! WTF? Now I know why people think about keyboardists this way...

[Farren]

My simple opinion: keyboards lack non-cheesy/non-simplistic application (inside the 'rock' genre) outside prog. And I'm glad. I'd rather see no keyboard at all than a keyboard being used in some painfully cheesy manner in some alternative rock/punk/emu band or any number of pop (same as the aforementioned genres I suppose) bands out there today. Have you seen keyboardists in modern popular music? Most of them would be better off not existing.

It has nothing to do with the weight. Nothing to do with the looks. Nothing to do with the price. Guitar (with amplification and cabinets) and drums easily cost as much as most keyboard setups.

[Enigma™]

The tricky thing is that it's all subjective.
Try and show me a rap song where a synth WASN'T used. That includes softsynths/samplers.
I'm currently in a rock-ish band and our music uses synths quite a bit. Mind you, it's a lot of piano/hammond, but on that same note the majority of the synth sounding stuff is orchestral *fake brass, fake strings, etc..* and we haven't heard yet that it sounds cheesy.
Agreed it can be hard, but I suppose it also depends on how much effort against trying to sound cheesy you're putting into it.

Myself, I use enough to get the job done and maybe a little more. And I avoid cheese if at all possible... ;)

[ktriton]

Myself, I use enough to get the job done and maybe a little more. And I avoid cheese if at all possible... ;)

Aww, come on! You're missing out on the best part ;)

Nah, keyboardists are there. Usually it's just a simple pad or something like that, but they're there. My feeling is that keyboardists get about the same level of attention onstage as DJs (unless you're Jens Johannssen or Rudess or whatnot).

[Rosie]

You cut your hair? >.> Sorry but I get upset at the utter lack of backbone modern men have to keep an individual image these days :8

I still need to figure a way of getting my keyboard down at the weekends. It's frickin' heavy, I have to take a guitar, effects pedals/small amp too. Amp's not necessary, but still.

I don't know what to do, at all. I can't walk that much with all that, and I have to do quite a bit of walking.

[Sk]

Don't have time now to read the whole thread. I just wanted to reply to the identity issue: what is true is that a keyboardist MUST have multiple identities. You could distinguish classical, jazz and rock/prog rock, but each of these has so much gradients in it... listen to "When the water breaks", Jordan plays everything, and you cannot say that he has not an identity because he plays piano/organ/lead/pads: he has an identity for each of these. In the end, to play that "Another Dimension" accordion riff, he HAS to know how an accordion is supposed to play. So, it's true, kbds can be dispersive in a sense, but this happens only when each of those "personalities" are strongly developped. (obviously, someone plays a lead riff with tubebells - but this is not kbds, this is only lame-ass-ness)

[Liquid Shadow]

You cut your hair? >.> Sorry but I get upset at the utter lack of backbone modern men have to keep an individual image these days :8



A truly individual image is simply wishful thinking. No matter what you decide to change in order to make yourself look "unique," you're simply falling into another visual stereotype. Long hair is not part of an individual image, and it's actually somewhat of a cliche in rock/metal music. Short hair is not individual, because billions of guys and girls alike have short hair. Medium length hair is not unique. Neither is "emo" hair or no hair. Pants are not unique, shorts are not unique, wearing nothing is not unique. Mohawks are not unique, beards are not unique, torn clothing is not unique...



So on and so forth. No matter how we present ourselves, it is copying an image from somebody else.

[Farren]

It still sucks when men choose to cut their hair to get more attention from girls, or when they are forced to cut their hair in order to get a decent job, the single most prejudiced and accepted double-standard in modern America. Where the fuck is the ACLU when you need them?

[LithoJazzoSphere]

A truly individual image is simply wishful thinking. No matter what you decide to change in order to make yourself look "unique," you're simply falling into another visual stereotype.

I think Rosie is talking about numbers. In the past 10 years long hair has been out of style except for a few sub-cultures (progressive metal, etc.). So if you have long hair, you look unique in comparison to the vast majority of men. However, I've noticed an increasing number of guys with long hair, or hair that they appear to be growing out (myself included), so I'm curious if this is widespread, and indicative of a trend towards longer hair again.

[Farren]

The summer will see to it that many of them cut it off before it gets too long. I'm more tempted every year :/

Most guys who seem to be growing their hair out are likely just keeping it at an Abercrombie length.

[Rosie]

"If you have long hair, you're just fitting into another stereotype" is a ridiculous fallacy. So having short hair, which is about 20 times more common, is more individual?

Plus, long hair has any number of vastly different lengths and styles it can be, whereas short hair does not. On that *alone* long hair has the capacity to be more individual.

[Taurus]

Why don't you see it this way: people who don't have in some way a musical background are less likely to appreciate complex playing. For them it just sounds 'fast', no matter how good the phrasing is. For some of us perhaps, we could say that filmscore all sounds the same! But in reality, there's a HUGE difference in this genre as well. Really think about it.
These people also often think the keyboardist's sounds like a guitar. And we all know (despite the Sherinian/Johansson like patches) that most synthleads are just NOT sounding like a guitar at all. And still they would think it was cheesy.
Because they simply don't have the musical ear for these things, they often don't 'get' the music. And really, don't blame them or think low of them, we're not all musicians. They should be able to enjoy music for enjoymentfactors as well.

In that case, don't care what other people think. Those who are musicians themselves will know the difference. The other's might just be too attracted by the sound of a guitar, which had its own image for decennia of years. Apparently, keyboardsound hasn't got its own image yet for these people. I suppose it will come over time, as synthesis technology is groing so strongly and it will dominate more.

[Rosie]

A lot of people blame synthesisers for bad music, but we have less proper keyboard players now, and music has certainly degraded. You can abuse any instrument like that really, it's just that keyboards do so many different tones. It's a shame that they're abused so much.

Also, there are still keyboardists in Rock and Metal, check out the band "Lordi" http://www.lordi.org/ they use lots of keyboards, courtesy of a Miss Enary(who's really hot) ^_^

[ImaX]

Today I got a phone call ffrom a friend, searching for a keyboardist for his new music project. While we were talking he brought up an interesting point - he wanted me for playing the keys because I'm really into synths. He said that most of the players he knows want to be piano players. They have a classical background and have a good playing technique, but when it comes to sound design and playing hard synths they don't want to ("bah, I'm classical trained, who cares about synthesizers...").

Not to say that a clasical backgorund is bad, see JR - but he enjoys all the new technical features and plays really synthesizer, while others onlay can play piano parts and want to do something classical instead of rock, pop...

Interesting point I think.

[ktriton]

Today I got a phone call ffrom a friend, searching for a keyboardist for his new music project. While we were talking he brought up an interesting point - he wanted me for playing the keys because I'm really into synths. He said that most of the players he knows want to be piano players. They have a classical background and have a good playing technique, but when it comes to sound design and playing hard synths they don't want to ("bah, I'm classical trained, who cares about synthesizers...").

Not to say that a clasical backgorund is bad, see JR - but he enjoys all the new technical features and plays really synthesizer, while others onlay can play piano parts and want to do something classical instead of rock, pop...

Interesting point I think.

Yeah, I've gotten that before, too. It's true though. Synthesists are a rare species--and not DJs, but actual pianists that are able to manipulate synthesized instruments.

[ChrisMcCoy]

It still sucks when men choose to cut their hair to get more attention from girls, or when they are forced to cut their hair in order to get a decent job, the single most prejudiced and accepted double-standard in modern America. Where the fuck is the ACLU when you need them?

Well,
I'm 37 years old now with a wife and 2 small children, so my outlook on the whole long hair/corporate image thing is much different than it was 14 years ago. My kids and wife are my priority, so if the boss asks me to cut my hair, if that's what it takes to keep my family fed, clothed and housed, then that's what I do.
If you had asked me the same question when I was working my lousy stinking warehouse job back in 91, I'd say yeah, I'm not cutting my hair for any job. That was my attitude back then, and I still had an image as part of a "long hair band" (see my website for details). True, largely the whole long hair style has changed and there aren't as many people with long hair, at least in this area...and truthfully, I don't really miss some of the things about my long hair, like the huge shampoo and conditioner bills, the endless upkeep, adding an hour to my "get ready" time just for my hair, and the never ending battle to keep split ends from happening. Things are much simpler now and I'm not complaining about not having it....For me, it was just one more thing to worry about before a gig. That part I don't miss at all.
:)

[Farren]

I agree, I'd cut mine, too, if it was required to secure a good job. However, that doesn't take away from the fact that it's a horrible doublestandard that no one cares about or sympathizes with. I hope, for my sake, when I get my masters that I no longer care about having long hair. Not likely though. By the way, prep time isn't a problem for me. I let it dry in a pony tail and, surprisingly, it stays nice, even when I let it down :P

[Liquid Shadow]

What do you think of when considering the rock/metal musician stereotype? I think of someone dressed in jeans, some sort of band shirt, and long hair...maybe it's different to you...but you can't deny that it is a VERY common look and one of the few justified (to a certain extent) stereotypes of any sub-culture.


Varying lengths makes it individual? Give me a break. Someone with 12 inch hair is no more individual than the guy next to him with 13 inch hair, simply because of the length that their hair is worn at. Short hair can have varying lengths as well. Does short mean 1/4 inch? Does it mean anything under 2 inches? Is short hair limited to one color? Can short hair be worn in only one style? Spiked, bleached, combed to the left, combed to the right, slicked back...are these any less distinct or "individual" from different lengths of long hair?

How is one length of long hair individual? Do you really think that only one person can have a specific length?


And I never said that short hair is more individual. No hair style/length or anything related to your external image can make you individual. Read my post again and you'll see that I outlined how nothing about your appearance makes you an individual...whether that be hair or the type of clothing you are wearing.



Does anybody really have long hair just to go against the norm? In this day and age, where it has become a stereotype for musicians to have long hair and rebellion has almost become the norm itself, you're lying to yourself if you think that you have long hair because YOU wanted to be different, not because other people did it and you thought it was cool.

[Alex Argento]

Hi people!
The only thing I can say is: a keyboard player in a band "makes the difference" in every musical genre..Depending of the use u do (sounds used, chords and so on..), u can embellish or destroy a song. A good use of keyboards can trasform a simple song in a great one. Imagine, for example, Jump by Van Halen without keyboards LOL ...these three chords "makes the difference". or I'm wrong??? :) Another example...Planet X...they did metal-fusion right?? Ok...imagine one of the PX's songs without the harmony, sounds and the atmospheres created by keyboards...It wouldn't have any sense...Ok..maybe we try to emulate guitars when we do solos (sometimes with very good results), but guitars can emulate the "way of playing" of keyboards??? Uhmm....really really difficult ;)
Another example...when u listen the song "In The End" by Linkin Park (nu metal), tell me, what is the first thing you will remember of the song? easy! the piano part on the intro with the electronic loop in background..and what is that instrument that can do this?? uhm..let me think...OH YEEEESS...THE KEYBOARD!!!!!!! :D I dont think I have to continue....Keyboards are the icing on the cake!

MY VERDICT IS: THUMB UP FOR KEYS!!! :D
Peace,

Alex.

[lighthouse]

AMEN!!!


Juan Pablo

[TheMagician]

Keys:
I just dont think keyboardists have the same general popular appeal as guitarists. Guitars have a much longer popular following, almost every single great band has had a guitarist of some form involved which most random fans recognised. Less bands have a keys element, and often thats not recognised except by the more attentive fans.

There are also very very few keyboardists that are household names. Certainly no-one of the likes of Hendrix, Santana, Clapton etc who almost everyone can name even if they know nothing else about them. And funnily enough, even those that do do well like Elton John are usually known for their singing and songs rather than for playing keys/piano. Dont know why - just seems to be a standard response of the popular culture.

Hair:
I'm not entirely sure why I grew my hair long - but I'm glad I did - its kind of a statement about being into rock music - its kind of a thing that just feels right - its partly rebellion from a youth of short hair - and its not at all anything to do with a phobia of scissors... honest.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

There's also a difference between pop/rock and rock/metal, which is the topic. Pianos, some organ, other miscellaneous keyboard instruments are perfectly acceptable to the mainstream. Elton John, Billy Joel, Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Ben Folds, Coldplay, all are known as keyboard (primarily piano) driven artists. It's in rock/metal that keyboards are a boutique instrument. If you asked the average person off the street to name some metal keyboard players they'd have to strain to think of any.

[Rosie]

I'd go to amazing lengths to keep my hair (sometimes girls cut their hair to chin length just to be "professional") even if I was a guy.

You need to be responsible to your family and such, but at the same time, you need to make a stand. If you do everything because you're bound to duty to your boss, your family, you'll never end up changing anything. And in the tech world, long hair is perfectly acceptable for the most part. At most the it would only be a little harder to find a job.

Everyone these days is "responsible" for things. But nothing ever changes. We're stuck in the same hole because of supposed "maturity" which seems more like laziness coupled with cowardice.
It's unlikely you'd ever go entirely unemployed just for having long hair, or dressing slightly differently. Especially at the stage in life when you have so many qualifications and have been working so long people won't really care what you look like.

Somethings are a little more important than whether Billy gets his new toy... principles we've allowed to be raped and used against us.
The Human race, for the most part, serves no function. Why? Because it never bothers to sort itself out. It thinks because something is the way it is, it must be utterly right and is the absolute best it can be. Bullshit. Nobody even TRIES any more.
I'm going to dye my hair bright red again soon. I was a bit of an idiot to dye it black(natural colour), and perhaps I myself was a bit of a coward at the time. And I'm not changing that for a job. I'll just buy a wig if it gets *that* dire, and wear it to interviews. Then take it off at work. It really is as simple as that.

People have it fixed in their heads that as soon as they get a job, as soon as they get married, as soon as they have kids, etc. they have to completely sell themselves out and dedicate themselves to their job and family.
But wait a second, *when do you actually get to live as a fully grown human being?* You're supporting kids who are *in training* and lack freedom and the ability to make their own life decisions. When they get to your age, they'll do the same with their children.
Nobody is living anymore. We're machines. Disgusting, filthy, machines. We were the earths proudest and most advanced sons and daughters, and look how we disappointed her! We create so much and then end up destroying more in return.
People looking the same isn't an "oh well" thing. Because generally, they're not terribly different inside by the time it affects their appearance. I've seen so many people say "Oh well I calmed down a LOT and cut my hair, but I still have the same Rock'n'Roll spirit inside!" and they don't. They really, really, really don't. Nothing's wrong with cutting your hair if you really want to, but the fact that so few men have long hair shows something's up. Only people like Jordan who are in a position to do what they like can be honestly taken as acting out of what they actually want to do, not what they're too scared not to do.

I was in a #guitar IRC channel, and I got harassed for being a goth (or at least being in a #goth). I mean, wtf? It was also buy a guy who claimed to be a punk, and was the biggest corporate sell out I could imagine. We don't have any true punks anymore. Even a lot of goths have polls up their asses these days. We don't have any wild, free individuals.
Look at music now. We don't have any characters anymore. It's all pre manufactured crap or emotionless, imagless bands playing "retro" style music that's been done before again and again.
Sports, at least in the UK suffer from the *exact same problem*. They only characters are ones like Vinnie Jones and such who don't PLAY sports anymore. There are no new characters. Snooker, Tennis, Football, same problem.

It's all money driven, greed, ambition and fear of change.
This has *everything* to do with why keyboardists aren't popular anymore. They're something a bit different and people are afraid of them. They don't like having characters like Rick Wakeman was anymore, or even more "Modern" musicians like Rudess or Sherinan.
Keyboards are "weird" and "gay", except to the Techno/Dance kiddies when you're playing that kind of thing, which isn't exactly unlocking their full potentional.
As well as keyboardists we NEED another Jimi Hendrix. A wild child. We don't have any role models like that anymore. No bad boys, or naughty girls. Where are our Johnny Rottens and Siouxsie Siouxs?

Gods, look at Metallica. They used to be cool, and now all they want is money, money, money. You don't play music for money! You play it because it's what you want to do and what's in your heart.
Most of the figures we hold dear in music, and most music, actually, comes from a time before this one. The early 90s were awesome, a great era for many things, then around the end... things fell apart. The "War on Terror" was the final blow, splitting and dividing people and making them stop caring, whether you support it or not, you can't deny what it's done to the common people.
The face that people go to lengths to stand up for GWB still bemuses me. I'm sorry, but I don't understand why a blatant homophobe who binds a religion with the state even more than before can be so dear to you... Please don't stop reading if you were offended by that, though. Many of the points from now on apply whether you support or not, hopefully, but I had to get that off my chest. How can I like someone who wants to stop me marrying?

*WE* are loosing our souls and people refuse to do a thing about it because they're afraid to move, because it might affect them, their family, their dog, their money, their stamp collection, their new car, whatever. Well, more than likely, you'll end up surviving. Your freedom and soul however, are a different matter.

It's all possessive. That's what's shallow more than image. People say image is shallow, yet continue to lead the most shallow lives looking like everyone else. Image is not inherently shallow. Judging things solely by image is shallow, expressing yourself using your outward appearance can be brave, deep, and creative.
There was a time when there was more than meets to eye to people, but it's slowly waning. Everyone's becoming a drone. Identikit music bands, pop tripe filling up the charts, no rebellious figures...
"Image" driven bands nowadays really don't have an image as well as music. They have a "trendiness" factor. Not a true, individual image. If they were the kinds to have a unique image, they'd probably have music in their souls in the first place.

I mean, seriously. After people like Rage against the Machine faded away, Michael Moore (who directed their videos) was the best we had. Not the greatest, but at least he was someone. As soon as he speaks out against something, people suddenly start calling him a "Fat Liar" which gets accepted globablly as fact, with *almost no proof whatsoever*, which is ENTIRELY hypoctricial because of their claims. They generally point to the same online document, over and over, "Sex lies and videotape", a badly written page that fails to tackle points head on, and does so in a very droning manner, on and on trying to explain how something isn't so without any actual solid punch to it. No substance.

Dude, of course he exagerrated. He's a human being with drive opinions and emotions. How can he be entirely unbiased? The point is he's not perfect, but nowhere near as bad as his opposition.

People are just afraid, for one moment, to think they made a wrong decision. Afraid of change. Afraid of homosexuals being treated like real human being, who would be their underdogs then!?

There is so little soul in this world anymore. People just don't care about one another anymore. Unfortunately, you may have to make sacricifes to fight it. However, as it is, your life is a constant sacrifice anyway. Actually, isn't that what the song "Endless Sacrifice" is about :P I think that might be why people don't change. People are afraid to try a different kind of sacrifice, because it's not the "done" thing, even if it has a chance to end all the other sacrifice and be done with it.

I don't mean to offend, I am not perfectly strong either and have done things I shouldn't have to fit in a bit better, but I recognise my flaws and this is my hardcore view of the world. It hurts to me to see what goes on around me.

I hope I touch at least one person with all this though...

[Tusker]

Nice post, Rosie.


Hair doesn't matter. At least that's what I tell myself these days. Hey when they start to turn white and fall off, you start thinking differently. ;)


Jerry

[Rosie]

Hair matters to me, a lot.

Hair is an interesting thing we have. It's the most customisable thing we have attatched our bodies. We can cut it, dye it, curl it, tie it up and all sorts. It really glows with self expression. For that reason, I think hair does matter, as it's the best conduit we have for expressing ourselves through our appearance without the use of external means such as clothes.

[ChrisMcCoy]

You need to be responsible to your family and such, but at the same time, you need to make a stand. If you do everything because you're bound to duty to your boss, your family, you'll never end up changing anything. And in the tech world, long hair is perfectly acceptable for the most part. At most the it would only be a little harder to find a job.

Why ? I don't think I'm unhappy with my current situation. I'm well paid and enjoy the heck of what I do. Why try to fix something that isn't broken. It's not broken for me anyway...


Everyone these days is "responsible" for things. But nothing ever changes. We're stuck in the same hole because of supposed "maturity" which seems more like laziness coupled with cowardice.
It's unlikely you'd ever go entirely unemployed just for having long hair, or dressing slightly differently. Especially at the stage in life when you have so many qualifications and have been working so long people won't really care what you look like.

Somethings are a little more important than whether Billy gets his new toy... principles we've allowed to be raped and used against us.
The Human race, for the most part, serves no function. Why? Because it never bothers to sort itself out. It thinks because something is the way it is, it must be utterly right and is the absolute best it can be. Bullshit. Nobody even TRIES any more.
I'm going to dye my hair bright red again soon. I was a bit of an idiot to dye it black(natural colour), and perhaps I myself was a bit of a coward at the time. And I'm not changing that for a job. I'll just buy a wig if it gets *that* dire, and wear it to interviews. Then take it off at work. It really is as simple as that.

People have it fixed in their heads that as soon as they get a job, as soon as they get married, as soon as they have kids, etc. they have to completely sell themselves out and dedicate themselves to their job and family.


To me it wasn't a sell out at all.
I made a choice. I still play music from time to time on the weekends, but I've already had my big moments in the sun. Read my bio on my website for a full explanation...http://www.chrismccoymusic.biz


But wait a second, *when do you actually get to live as a fully grown human being?* You're supporting kids who are *in training* and lack freedom and the ability to make their own life decisions. When they get to your age, they'll do the same with their children.

I'm a father to 2 beautiful little girls. Every day in my life is magical. Yes there are lots of responsibilities, but that's what I signed up for. No complaints here.
I'm in a different place in my life. I've already lived my dreams. Now I'm raising my kids. When they are adults, I'm sure they'll follow whatever path they want to. I'm certainly not going to stand in their way and try to tell them how to live their life. My parents certainly did not do that to me.


Nobody is living anymore. We're machines. Disgusting, filthy, machines....
I couldn't agree less.
As Joe Walsh once sang, "Life's been good to me so far..."

[Rosie]

Maybe you yourself are happy with the way you are, or at least convincing yourself well enough, but can you honestly look me in a face and tell me the world, as it is right now, is a happy place?

There was a time when most went through a stage of angst, now it seems to be a stage of crippling depression. Something is WRONG there.
There's less and less good music, and less and less unity in our lives.

There is no way you pass the modern world off as a good one. Ten years ago, the world was a decent place, but that was mainly hope for the future. Now it's just terrible.

The more we accept the world the way it is, the less we do to change it. It's not like making a personal change were our own self confidence that we're alright the way we are will help us - the world is far, far too divided for that. You seem to have a reasonable happy life, for now anyway, but keep in mind most people telling a similiar tale to you really aren't. I've talked with quite a few people at your stage in life, and seen some on the forums, and it's a very definite impression I get, and not unrealistic given the current state of the world.

[ChrisMcCoy]

I'd have to agree with you on the general point.

There are a lot of issues with the world right now.

Probably the worst is the wars and terrorism that have taken place and cost so many innocent lives....

Maybe music is the answer....

[Rosie]

Just so you know I wasn't getting on you in specific, just that what you said sparked it off for me to get what *generally* causes things like guys cutting their hair :)

And I agree, Music can be a great solution. Jimi Hendrix being a great example. Rage Against the Machine were also good for politcal awareness.

But the problem is deeper than that, though... most people nowadays seem to suffer from depression. Then again, music is a good cure for that too.

If only we had more good music again!

[Irish]

As long as the prog scene keeps going strong, we have nothing to worry about. I have no shortage of great bands that I enjoy listening to. I'm also extremely happy with what life has given me thus far, my only regret is that there are oppressed people who cannot live with the same freedoms as we all take for granted, and that to me is the truly sad thing. That's why we're working to change that, and hopefully allow the whole world the freedom of choice and the ability to live, that the free world currently enjoys.

There are some parts of the world that are stricken with grief, poverty, and live in violence, and that is sad, but on the whole I believe we can accomplish a great deal together, because we're all human. We make mistakes, but our accomplishments thus far, particularly technological, give me amazing faith in the human race and what people can accomplish if we put our minds to it.

[albertors]

I hear your words guys but there is nothing to worry about. Musicianship has yet to come to pass and no matter how strong technology, trends and other social aspects might be it will always find beautiful things to say and good ears to speak to.

As a universal language music will constantly transform itself and its usage but there will be always more than one way to tell a good story with it. Part of the frenetic technological progress also brought us new paths for musical communication and this thing itself is definitely a good one.

I can look around serene and find some good friends that I know that, believe me, are wonderful, passionate travellers in today's music journey. The music they play tells me that nothing is really lost and pays back for a lot of terrible things that, sadly, go on in these times.

Whatever the style, the instrument and the background we are all equal, wonderful masters in music.

Alb

[Rudess]

Do ya really REALLY wanna know why??

It's because you guys don't practice!!

JR

[albertors]

Jordan you are absolutely right. Also the fact that your post is right after mine makes me remember I am probably the first one to whom your comment applies :)

Alb

[Bert]

Actually, I know the real reason...

Jordan paid off the powers that be in the metal world... just so he could have the keyboard monopoly!!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

-- B

[Rudess]

It had nothing to do you with you my friend!
It's just that I think that people in general are lazy.
If you want to know how I got to be good, well I don't have time to explain because I'm to busy practicing and PROGRAMMING!!

JR

[albertors]

It had nothing to do you with you my friend!
It's just that I think that people in general are lazy.
If you want to know how I got to be good, well I don't have time to explain because I'm to busy practicing and PROGRAMMING!!

JR

Thanks Jordan :) I am catching a good breath of relief (even if, in my conscience of eternal student I know when I could have done more).

I must also say that listening to you (and meeting you personally) has always been a reason for great and constant motivation. It's true that we gather crops from the seeds that we plant.

Back to practice now :) all the best vibes programming and forging your musical palette :)

Alb

[DT4L]

ok, sorry if i sound like an ass but what do you mean "programming"? making synth sounds? to be honest im not really sure about the difference between keyboards and synths.

I think one of the reasons that keys and keyboardists arent "cool" is as has been said before - cheesy sounds - personally i wish that all those shitty, video game type synth sounds had never been invented.
I also think that people dont pay as much respect to keyboards because alot of the time they are just copying other instruments. strings, orchestral sounds, brass sections etc.They are fine for recordings but when people hear it they dont imagine that it is a keyboard, so when they see a live show they either want a real orchestra or to have it on a backing track, not some guy standing infront of a box. I think that when people think of REAL keyboard sounds they think of piano, organ and the shit-hole cheesy synth sounds, none of which have a very rocky image.
if we use the rock sounds i think we have a chance of breaking into the metal market, to have a keyboard player on stage would be more acceptable to many people if the keyboard had its own sound, stick with piano, organ (and theres no harm in adding phat distortion to the organ) and some of the new synth sounds... they dont sound cheesy at all they sound fucking awsome, and i could easily see keys in metal or even real heavy death metal.
but are there any keyboardists who would do that? i would jump at the chance, first death metal keyboardist... id like that title.
as for stage appearence, i dont think thats really an issue, with a tilting stand the people can see you play, and who said that just because you cant jump around with your board like a guitar that you cant move around on stage, i think that a key player can have as much stage presence as a guitarist.
Hair... i dont really see that as the main reason peaple dont see the keyboard player as being cool.
I say that we have the power to make keyboards "cool" and to make the keyboard player "cool"
I for one am sick and tired of being told "heh, who need a fucking keyboard player, all you do is push a button" by some arrogant asshole guitarist who thinks its all about him and his power chords, to them i say "fuck you", and rip out a phat ass solo that they couldnt even dream of playing.
keyboards have a place in heavy rock music, whether or not people see it yet or not.

[Rosie]

I like video game music XD I think bad dance, pop and techno is more to blame.

And I don't get much time to practice, and when I do, I have two instruments to practice. Work and depression leaves me tired most of the time, and lately I'm too busy trying to work out how to get sounds my U-20 is missing, got a decent Pipe organ last night! Needs some tweaking though.

[Liquid Shadow]

some arrogant asshole guitarist who thinks its all about him and his power chords, to them i say "fuck you", and rip out a phat ass solo that they couldnt even dream of playing.



Oh, the irony...

[Liquid Shadow]

There is no way you pass the modern world off as a good one. Ten years ago, the world was a decent place, but that was mainly hope for the future. Now it's just terrible.




The last century has brought us two world wars (one fought against Hitler!), the conflict in Vietnam, the Gulf War, the "War on Terror," de-segregation followed by re-segregation, the KKK, the industrial revolution and consequently destruction of the environment...etc, etc, etc...all of this within the last century. It didn't all occur between 10 years ago and now, some of it goes back further than anybody here. And the world was a good place 10 years ago?


Was the world ever really a decent place? Was it a decent place while Jews were being killed off by the thousands? Was it a good place when our air became polluted with junk? Was it a good place while racism ran rampant? Was it a good place while settlers of America killed off the natives who had lived here far before their arrival?



No matter what period of time you look at, people are going to be screaming that everything is falling to dust...and has it? There are problems in the world now, just like there were problems in the world 10 years ago, 20 years ago, 200 years ago, and 2000 years ago. Whether or not it is a "good" place depends on how you choose to look at it, and if you're comparing the real world to your own ideal world, then you'll always be disappointed.


Does that mean that we shouldn't make this little rock of ours a better place? Absolutely not. But people have been thinking that it's all going downhill for eons now, and we really have to put everything into perspective.


Look at the countless charities in the world right now, look at the number of nations where freedom now reigns instead of the oppression from hundreds of years ago. Look at the accomplishments of modern science and technology...look at our current understanding of the human body, of the Earth itself, and of the entire universe. Look at the accomplishments of the Civil Rights movement and the difference in society for minorities in the 50's compared to modern times.



Is the world really a bad place? Sometimes. Is it a good place? Sometimes. Is it a perfect place? No. Is it all coming to a horrible end? No.

[moncholo]

if someone invented a computer keyboard that is a piano keyboard but each note is a letter or a number or the "enter" button, you guys would be a million times better than you are now

[deltagmc]

I agree with moncholo

[Farren]

Get the patent before I do. Very true.

[Liquid Shadow]

if someone invented a computer keyboard that is a piano keyboard but each note is a letter or a number or the "enter" button, you guys would be a million times better than you are now


The fact that I can type over 50 words per minute should be taken into account. Long posts don't take long to type up.


And you know what? Shut up with the "Oh you should just spend this time practicing" bullshit. I'm tired of that attitude from people who think that anything else but sitting around practicing is a waste of time. There's more to life than music, and part of that includes discussion and debate on various topics.

I don't know where you draw the inspiration to play and write music from, but I draw it from life. Without living out other aspects of life, besides sitting behind a piano and practicing scales, there is no inspiration to draw from. The musician whose entire life is consumed by music has nowhere to draw inspiration from and nothing to express.

Not only that, but not everybody has music as a sole interest. Some of us play for a hobby, and others like myself aspire to make a living off of music in the future. Within both categories, there are people who...gasp...have other interests besides music. These can include sports, philisophy, politics, movies...whatever. So what if we decide to immerse ourselves in other activities besides music 24/7? Got a problem with some solid, good-natured debate? Piss off. There's no reason for you to be posting on this forum if you're not looking for something to discuss...that's the point of a forum. If you just want to talk about your technique or your gear or other music-related stuff, there are other forums for that. Welcome to the GENERAL CHAT section, where we talk about other things too. Oh the humanity!


But wait, there's more! While you're busy telling people to stop taking so much time committing blasphemous acts such as engaging in discussion on an internet forum (God save us all!), there are people like me, who you were undoubtedly adressing, who can spend time doing other activities AS WELL as being competent musicians.



You're telling me to practice more instead of typing things up? Is that why I practice over an hour a day on classical stuff and technique and additional time on writing and working on improvisation? Is that why I have recieved written praise as well as an overall score of 15/18 in classical performance from musicians who have played with Peter Nero? Is that why I am currently the top student in my theory class and will be assisting in teaching the class next year? Is that why I often am not paying attention in other courses, because I'm too busy writing out rhythmic junk or dictating melodies and chord movements that I hear in my head? Is that why I am the top student in the jazz program at my school, and one of the two top improvisers there? Is that why I am considered by literally everybody in the various music programs at my school as the best pianist there? (There are over 3,300 students at my school). Is that why I am the go-to guy for anything related to music theory (aside from the theory teacher himself)? Is that why I won the lead contest on this site a couple months ago? Is that why I have gotten compliments both on my programming capabilities and musical ideas from various members of this site and others, who are professional keyboardists themselves? Is that why my talent (in composition and performance) is held in such high regards with a composer I know who has recieved praise from composition professors nationwide?


Is that why you're telling me to practice more? What do you have to show for yourself and your music, and what justifies the holier-than-thou attitude about music and you trying to tell others that they should take all their time from other activities and devote it to music?



A word of advice: If you're going to speak up about something, have substantial backing to what you're saying. If you can logically justify your annoying little comment, then by all means, be my guest. If you've got some amazing musical accomplishments and you think you're doing me a favor in telling me what to do and what not to do, then by all means, share what you've got. Otherwise, be quiet and let those interested in discussion continue discussion. Keep your assenine one-liners to yourself.

[Prodigy4898]

Guys thanks for all the feedback! I don't know if my threads are interesting to reply to (like "Dream Theater...Just how much profit do these guys make?"), but you've definetely shown me some important points! Thanks for all the replies...and I'll communicate again soon!

[deltagmc]

There's more to life than music.

There are different points of view.
If u think that there's more to life that music, that's YOUR point of view not from everyone includding me.
For me music is..... no words to describe. Is the moment when someone stops to think in all the problems of the life and enjoy that moment without thinking in anything else. That's why i love the music.

[moncholo]

</very_long_post>

holy shit dude chill out
dont take it so personal.... i just wanted to give my opinion.... i think you should respect it and say if you agree or not or, if you feel like, say what you think about it, and give your opinion... but i think that the whole shut up thing isnt necesary....

i think that you are pre-judging a bit.... though im alive because of music, i also do lots of other things....... plus if someone likes music and only does music i think you should let them do that, because thats how musicians became musicians....


ask any DT member or any great musician and you'll find out that they barely had life when preparing themselves.....

[normthesamurai]

Heres my opinion on the keyboard being cool issue:

The problem is that most mainstream music is going more punk and no offence to that genre of music but it is really freaking easy to play and only really uses guitars and drums. Becouse of this people see the film clips of all the punk bastards like Blink 182 playeing their three little chords over and over again and whining about girls and the viewer, much to his or her ignorance. Sees these guys as clever musicians. Now I'm not saying that punk bands can't play for crap, just that their style of music doesn't often reflect any real skill anymore.

Ok thats a big generalisation of punk and pop music and your probably wandering where im going with all of this. I think that people in mainstream music who can play keyboards either stick to those really nice peacefull peices and never really explore what can be done. So naturally one would assume that since the latest pop/punk bands arn't playing keyboards that it's not a cool instrument.

That and like every guy who I know plays piano at my school are not into rock, or any new music.

Yeah I am planning on elaberate but Ive gots no time right now.

[DT4L]

liquid shadow... if you had included the first half of my sentance in your quote it wouldnt seem so ironic, can yopu say that you have never been told by anyone "who needs keyboards." i have been told many times, and im sick of it, sick of the image of the rock band being guitars and drums. i think theres room for keys in rock.

[Rosie]

Liquid Shadow, did you just tell Jordan to shut up!? He wasn't being very serious when he said that. He was too busy programming XD
I don't think anyone really meant that we weren't practicing enough.

[moncholo]

liquid shadow... i just noticed that in your post you say that there are other things besides music.... and then you say that if i dont have any musical skills or any shit to show of like you did, that i have to shut up? because im not the best jazz pianist at my society of supreme master keyboardists of the universe?







ROFLMAO.... that teally made me laugh... thanks, i needed it

[agamemnon]

wow, I read the topic then went to post on the last page, well, don't have time to read the debate of the previous 4 pages so I'll post on topic again.

I don't think keyboards are dying out at all, there just ain't very many of us. When I left my first band a while back and was looking for a gig, I had more solicitations than I ever imagined. Now, mind u I am not some sexy chick nor can I compare my abilities to the great JR himself, but there are a shitload of bands who feel they need some form of synthesis to either:

a: add dynamic to there music
B: change they're sound all together because its really hard for a rock or metal guitarist or drummer to stand apart from everything else out there.

When I played a big texas music festival with somthing like 60 bands I counted 3 keyboards including me, and we all had prime spots.

I don't think keyboardists are dying out, I just think we tend to be ferociously independant and sometimes apart from the band alltogether, (at least me, I don't dress for any occasion), and a lot of the really good keyboardists just don't dig the rock and metal music of today. U don't see them as much because the music stinks. (put a grand piano concerto in the middle of a Korn song and see what that does)....

Well, clear-channel is killing everything including nu-metal so we'll see if anouther era springs up....

-m

[Liquid Shadow]

liquid shadow... if you had included the first half of my sentance in your quote it wouldnt seem so ironic, can yopu say that you have never been told by anyone "who needs keyboards." i have been told many times, and im sick of it, sick of the image of the rock band being guitars and drums. i think theres room for keys in rock.


It's ironic because you're talking about "arrogant guitarists" while bragging about your solos that they "couldn't hope to play." You display your own arrogance while harping on the arrogance of others. Irony.



Liquid Shadow, did you just tell Jordan to shut up!? He wasn't being very serious when he said that. He was too busy programming XD
I don't think anyone really meant that we weren't practicing enough.

I didn't tell Jordan to shutup. My post was directed at somebody else, not him. I know that he lives a well-rounded life and doesn't go around telling people that they are wasting their time whenever they participate in a discussion (except his comment in this thread, which I took as tongue-in-cheek)


liquid shadow... i just noticed that in your post you say that there are other things besides music.... and then you say that if i dont have any musical skills or any shit to show of like you did, that i have to shut up? because im not the best jazz pianist at my society of supreme master keyboardists of the universe?

You're the professor of "Missing the Point 101" at Harvard, correct?


Just because you're not the best jazz pianist at your society of supreme master keyboardists of the universe does not mean you should keep your mouth shut. It's because you're trying to tell other musicians what to do, when there's a high probability that they're on a whole other level than you...a lot of very talented and very accomplished people post here, and you chiming in and telling other people to practice more without knowing what they have accomplished is just plain stupid.


plus if someone likes music and only does music i think you should let them do that, because thats how musicians became musicians


If somebody wants to do other things besides music, such as posting in discussions on a forum, then maybe you should let them do that, instead of insisting that everybody stop posting here and go spend their entire life practicing. Hypocrite.


And for your information, not everybody has to woodshed themselves for 16 hours a day over a period of 4 years in order to become a competent musician.

[Tusker]

It's because you guys don't practice!!


Hmmh, you may have a point there.

Jerry

[moncholo]

ok liquid shadow, you're right; to say that to someone is really stupi (tell someone what to do and that stuff...) but i never said that

"if someone invented a computer keyboard that is a piano keyboard but each note is a letter or a number or the "enter" button, you guys would be a million times better than you are now"

for me, that doesnt sound like "hey, dude stop wasting time in the forums and practice"


ie:

"if someone invented something that give us one dollar each time we say f*ck, we would all be millionaires"

doesnt sound like "hey stop saying fuck"

actually my first comment was just an ironic and bad attempt at a little funnynes observation rather than some kind of bad intended comment or flame act

but its ok, now i understand your points and hopefully you will understand mine

[Farren]

actually my first comment was just an ironic and bad attempt at a little funnynes observation rather than some kind of bad intended comment or flame act

Actually, I really did think it was a good idea. Damn... Maybe I smoke too much. Anyway, it definitely wasn't an insult or a command of any sort.

[Liquid Shadow]

"if someone invented something that give us one dollar each time we say f*ck, we would all be millionaires"

doesnt sound like "hey stop saying fuck"

actually my first comment was just an ironic and bad attempt at a little funnynes observation rather than some kind of bad intended comment or flame act

but its ok, now i understand your points and hopefully you will understand mine


With that understanding of it, it makes a lot more sense. *gives olive brach as a peace offering* ;)

Still...putting my thoughts out into words and going on with a bunch of pointless rambling was fun...although I'm sure nobody wants me to make a habit of it. :p

[Enigma™]

*Shakes head and goes back to practicing...*

[Rosie]

You know, even though he wasn't terribly serious, Jordan does have a point. If we spent this amount of time practicing, then we'd probably all be a bit better :P

Unfortunately because of the fact that we need to do more than one activity every day or our heads will explode, it's not actually very practical to look at it that way, but still kind of funny.

[ChrisMcCoy]

Hehe.
I practice on my lunch hour. (My job is 2 miles from my house)
It's the only time during the day that I'm not either fixing a network issue or changing a diaper ! :)
At night I spend about 2 hours after the kids are asleep, studying for the Cisco CCNP exams.
Then there's that sleep thing...what is that again ?
:)

[moncholo]

*peace offering accepted*


it was fun while it lasted.....;)

[Taurus]

my god chris you're occupied. How can you do that and still have time to check these forums hehe

Sleep is very important. If I don't sleep enough I feel tired in my hands and can't play for shit. And my brain can't work efficiently...or somethin glike that.

[ChrisMcCoy]

my god chris you're occupied. How can you do that and still have time to check these forums hehe



Being a network guy, I have 3 computers on my desk at work doing 3 different things :)