"Indian" sports teams in America

[King_Ellesar]

yo. i am in this one class and we talked about this topic today. i'm not gonna say much right now about my thoughts other than my eyes were really opened to some things by looking from a different perspective on this. and i was just curious what you all thought of some of these teams (and most of their mascotts in particular). to see how many people think one way and how many the other. so please discuss what you feel openly. here are some links to them so you know what i'm talking about.:

Redskins (http://www.redskins.com/)
FSU (http://seminoles.collegesports.com/)
Indians (http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=cle)
And right here in Tampa (http://www.sdhc.k12.fl.us/~chamberlain.high/GeneralInformation/CurrentEvents_mar.htm) actually. i drive by this every day to school....

any thoughts?

[Awake]

Could you clarify exactly what you're asking - "i am in this one class"; which one? Social Studies? Group psychology? History? Sports mascotology? ;) Are you asking what people think about those teams as athletes, or their appropration of certain native american titles and iconography in support of the fostering of quasi-tribal pack mentalities among fans?

[King_Ellesar]

i didnt want to specify at first what type of class it was because i wanted to see if people would think of the racist connections without me hinting what kind of class it was ;) but yeah, i wasnt talking about how good the athletes are :) i didnt want to be too specific so i could see what people think on their own if they havent thought of it before...

[Bert]

May I suggest that you do a little independant, open-minded research of your own on this topic, aside from what the teacher/professor/whatever in the class wants you to think.

Yes, there have been a very few Native American groups that have complained about these types of sports teams. However, if you dig a little (you might have to make sure you get past all the screaming heads who try to flood the marketplace of ideas with one-sidedness), you will find that the vast, *vast* majority of Native groups have no problem with these teams, and furthermore don't even care a whit about them or their existence.

This seems to me to be another example of a group of people trying to protect another group of people from something that the latter group neither needs protection from, nor generally cares about anyways.

-- B

[Awake]

May I suggest that you do a little independant, open-minded research of your own on this topic, aside from what the teacher/professor/whatever in the class wants you to thinkI would contend that this is an important thing in any instance. With virtually no exceptions, a person's political views will flavor - sometimes subconsciously, but rarely entirely unwillingly - how they teach the subject. The terminology they choose, inflection in speech, the examples they pick, and so on.

[King_Ellesar]

yeah, i agree with most of what you guys are saying. i'm not 100% positive of my side on this yet either. based on what ive seen and heard, it does offend some people. and you might be right by saying that most of the American Indians today dont really care much about it and arent bothered by it. some of the people who were speaking out against it were doing that because there are spiritual connections to the dances, the clothes, facepaint etc that are used in some of these teams for entertainment and they see it as a mockery of something they still believe in and practice. like i said, i'm not 100% one way or another, i'm still thinking about it, but i wanted to know if anyone else here was aware of it and what they think about it. actually, i had never really thought about it in this way before so i thought that maybe there were others who havent either. i think up until now ive been sheltered most of my life from quite a few racial issues so a lot of this stuff is taking me by suprise. and at the same time, i dont want to let myself be brainwashed by some who blow things out of proportion. so, i respect your suggestion. and agree with you, Awake, how in the education systems, personal views, political views, anything could easily lead to a bias learning experience so some independant study on topics like these is necessary to avoid just listening to one person's ideas.

[ChrisMcCoy]

yo. i am in this one class and we talked about this topic today. i'm not gonna say much right now about my thoughts other than my eyes were really opened to some things by looking from a different perspective on this. and i was just curious what you all thought of some of these teams (and most of their mascotts in particular). to see how many people think one way and how many the other. so please discuss what you feel openly. here are some links to them so you know what i'm talking about.:

Redskins (http://www.redskins.com/)
FSU (http://seminoles.collegesports.com/)
Indians (http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=cle)
And right here in Tampa (http://www.sdhc.k12.fl.us/~chamberlain.high/GeneralInformation/CurrentEvents_mar.htm) actually. i drive by this every day to school....

any thoughts?

I'll be glad to speak to 2 of these.
I grew up a Redskins fan, living 20 minutes from Washington D.C. Ever since I can remember, that's been a hot topic and people have been trying to get it changed for years, but the "Skins" have become an institution of the city, and it's something that probably won't ever go away. The tradidion simply runs too deep.
I was a member of the "Florida State Marching Chiefs" in 1985. I'd have to dig into my history, but as I remember being told, the Seminole indian tribe was very concentrated in the area now know as Tallahassee (forgive my spelling, I was only there for 2 semesters). Since Seminole is a real tribe name, and not a "nickname", you'd probably be hard pressed to see that one change. I'd say "Redskin" is more offensive, particularly since it's not even a proper Indian name. For both, the amount of money invested is so deep in marketing amd merchandise that you probably won't ever see either one changed. I'd argue that the Basketball team in Washington DC has a more offensive name now than it did before they changed it, from "Bullets" to "Wizards". I think that word has more serious connotations, in my humble opinion.

[King_Ellesar]

I'll be glad to speak to 2 of these.
I grew up a Redskins fan, living 20 minutes from Washington D.C. Ever since I can remember, that's been a hot topic and people have been trying to get it changed for years, but the "Skins" have become an institution of the city, and it's something that probably won't ever go away. The tradidion simply runs too deep.
I was a member of the "Florida State Marching Chiefs" in 1985. I'd have to dig into my history, but as I remember being told, the Seminole indian tribe was very concentrated in the area now know as Tallahassee (forgive my spelling, I was only there for 2 semesters). Since Seminole is a real tribe name, and not a "nickname", you'd probably be hard pressed to see that one change. I'd say "Redskin" is more offensive, particularly since it's not even a proper Indian name. For both, the amount of money invested is so deep in marketing amd merchandise that you probably won't ever see either one changed. I'd argue that the Basketball team in Washington DC has a more offensive name now than it did before they changed it, from "Bullets" to "Wizards". I think that word has more serious connotations, in my humble opinion.

yeah i agree that it has a lot to do with the money (as most things do these days...) i heard recently actually that the term redskins was used a long time ago because there used to be a bounty on indians in america and if the bounty hunters would return the skin of an indian (usually from a scalping) they would get five dollars or something like that, hence the name "redskins". it does make me wonder why they use that still in the league but o well.

and ive also heard about a few teams using as their main defense that they are not disrespecting the indian tribe they are named after and in fact, they are honoring them by having their athletic's team, mascots, and merchandise having themes based on their indian culture and history. but what many were arguing was that it wasnt honoring them in any way, but was a mockery of their culture and spiritual beliefs. not only that, but people were adding that they were keeping inaccurate stereotypes of american indians alive through their merchandise.

[Bert]

If we want to go into the practice of scalping, then let's talk about 1) who started said practice... and 2) who practiced it WAY WAY WAY WAY more than any settler to ever set foot on this continent.

[whitelightening]

I would be more than happy to give some input for this topic, however I may not be able to stop. I am an alum of Ottawa University (in Kansas, NOT Canada) and we just had a national panel on our campus 6 weeks ago discussing the usage of Indian mascots for college and professional teams. By the way, Ottawa University is the Braves.

www.ottawa.edu

I would like to say that this panel was comprised of three Native Americans from three different tribes, but unfortunately the Chief of the Ottawa Tribe was ill and could not make it. Back in the '90's, Chief Daws of the Ottawa Tribe encouraged Ottawa University to use the Brave as its mascot because it gave the tribe a sense of pride and spiritual connectivity to the sacred ground on which the campus is located. In 2000, the mascot (formerly named Giego) was replaced as a sports mascot in favor of "Gibby" the Otter (the sacred animal of the Ottawa Tribe).

On one hand, I used to be able to understand the idea that this use of Indians as mascots were offensive until I had the chance to talk with Chief Daws myself. He explained that if we can carry ourselves in sport or in everyday activity in a was that was connected to the heightened spirit of his ancestors, then he could think of no better way for us to show our respects toward the Ottawa Tribe.

In the recent panel, there was a powerpoint display that showed one of my very best friends in the world wearing the tribal dress donated by the Ottawa Tribe. There were also bubbles of words (similar to a comic book) that said he "took their land, took their money, raped their women and killed them" among many other things. My friend is caucasian, but he is also 1/5th Ottawa Indian. He took his job as the Spiritual symbol of Ottawa University more seriously than most people would take anything. The fact that these panel members would display propoganda with such completely false implications show that we should in no way feel sorry for them because they can be equally as racist and offensive as they say non-natives are.

Okay, I'll stop my ranting now.

[King_Ellesar]

bert, i was told that it was actually the french who started the scalping when they came in the new world. i dont know if they practiced it more than anyone else, but it was also said that the indian's picked up the practice from the French in response to theyre people being scalped by them. i wasnt trying to imply that the settlers scalped more than anyone else did. and i also dont know if the term "redskins" came from the american settlers or the french when it came to collecting bounty for it. i was just told that it was the name they had for it when they had a bounty on the indians and just thought it was an interesting thing to name a team after.

[ChrisMcCoy]

If we want to go into the practice of scalping, then let's talk about 1) who started said practice... and 2) who practiced it WAY WAY WAY WAY more than any settler to ever set foot on this continent.

Well Bert, Honestly the only "Scalper" I've ever met was the one who sold me my HFStival tickets for 25.00 each in the parking lot of RFK Stadium back in 97. (By no small coincidence, that's where the Redskins used to play football before they built Fed Ex field). :)