Does jazz/keyboard playing ruin classical playing?

[Mangus The Red]

I have a friend who is absolutely an amazing piano player and the other day I heard him play jazz and improv for his first time and he is amazing! He has the potenial to be a great keyboardist or jazz pianist and he would love to do this, but he is afraid of ruining his classical playing. He's pretty much the best classical pianist for his age group in the midwest so I can understand that. Does playing jazz and other types of music like that ruin one's classical playing? Thanks a lot

[Ael]

Personally, if you practice your regular classical stuff and make that as a priority before playing keyboards or jazz you won't lose anything...a lot of classical music has jazz "riffs" to it...

[Cloak]

If you're talking about technically ruining your playing, I don't believe so. It's entirely possible to play correctly no matter what style you're using (just look at Jordan, for example).

As for theory-wise, I don't believe that either. There is NO reason that expanding your musical horizons in ANY direction should "ruin" you for another genre. Just look at me: I have musical tastes that run from country to progressive metal. I studied operatic singing technique in college, and yet I have no problem listening (or participating in) metal vocals too. In fact, i believe that expanding your horizons musically can only HELP you in your attempts to grow musically. I do not for one second subscribe to the belief that musical snobbery can help anything.

[Omega Monkey]

Does jazz/keyboard playing ruin classical playing?

Ask Patrick Moraz or Chick Corea.

[Angelic Layer]

The difference between jazz and classical is just the swing rhythm.
Tony Macalpine rips on both plus on guitar.

[Cloak]

The difference between jazz and classical is just the swing rhythm.
You think swing is the only jazz there is?

[Lyngs]

If he stops practicing classical, then he'll get worse at classical. It's as simple as that.

Playing jazz "ruins" nothing.

Take a look at Keith Jarrett, one of the worlds greatest jazzpianists, if not the greatest. He's also an outstanding classical pianist - check out his classical records.

[Keyplayer]

I can imagine he's afraid of that, because there are a lot off jazz pianists who havn't had classical training and have a somewhat 'weird' way of playing the piano. But I always like jazz pianists where you can hear the classical background. That's also the way I like to play jazz, (I have a classical background and play classical too) and the way that my teacher encourages it. So I'd just say: keep playing both!
Good luck with it.

Daan

[victorious]

i believe that makin' jazz is the most difficult thing in the world.it has improvisation sooo much and its too hard to do.because of this reason there aren't lots of musicians who playin' jazz so if musicians is jazz pianist,if musicians make improvisation soo easily,they can be the rock keyboarder or classical music pianist.thats my opinion,agree or not.jazz is the most difficult and comprehensive music style i think. :!: lastly,jordan should record a jazz album fifteen or sixteen years later with portnoy and myung. :D if they will do that,infact it will perfect.
P.S:i just joined this forum.of course i am crazy about d.t. and jordan like you.i hope you like me and i'll have lots of jordan and d.t fans. :)

[Kurzweilfreak]

I think the logic doesn't follow. To be proficient at jazz and/or improv, you have to develop an intuitive sense on the piano in terms of where your hands are and the fluidity to move them where you want them to go. If anything, I would think that it would help the classical playing. Besides, all classical playing is just memorizing what's on the page note for note. Once you have that, you know where your hands are supposed to go. With Jazz, where your hands are going isn't fixed. Hence, more fluidity.

[Eric Zane]

Does jazz/keyboard playing ruin classical playing?

Ask Patrick Moraz or Chick Corea.
Touché!

[Angelic Layer]

The difference between jazz and classical is just the swing rhythm.
You think swing is the only jazz there is?No, what I mean is main difference. Some valse can swing too.

[Ael]

The bottom of the line is if you don't practice in general, you're gonna lose technique...playing multiple styles doesn't mean a crippling of technique in other styles...if your friend doesn't practice scales and warmups and classical music, he will suck at all three, just the saem way if he took up classical piano after being primarily a jazz player, and doesn't practice jazz, he's gonna suck at jazz.

[Mangus The Red]

Cloak do you post on the Mike Portnoy forum? Thanks for the advise everyone!

[Cloak]

Cloak do you post on the Mike Portnoy forum? Thanks for the advise everyone!
Yes, of course I'm the same guy. :) If you see a "Cloak" on a music forum you can be pretty much guaranteed it's me.

[classicalpianistmaster]

Are you people kidding? It absolutely ruins a good classical pianist's style. Those two styles contrast so much that it is almost physically impossible to become a "master" of either if you play both. Trust me, I've played jazz, and it has RUINED my classical piano playing

[Ael]

Are you people kidding? It absolutely ruins a good classical pianist's style. Those two styles contrast so much that it is almost physically impossible to become a "master" of either if you play both. Trust me, I've played jazz, and it has RUINED my classical piano playing

I guess you must suck then :) Hate to say it...I have a bunch of friends here at Eastman School of Music who are majoring in jazz piano and who play jazz piano just as good as classical...

The fact that they mix together so well (look at bach, you have 7 chords and you'll find this in other classical music as well), that your technique can't die.

If you want to get by this I think you should do one of two things. To avoid losing your "technique" and avoid losing your "classical" playing:

1) Practice your scales. That is always a BIG helper man...that keeps your technique up.

2) Balance both styles, don't practice JUST jazz...practice both, it doesn't hurt.

"OMG!!11 PLYNG DA JAZZ RUINZ MY CLAZICAL!!! OH KNOES!!11!1!!"

[kevmo_fan]

Yeah... have a combination of both styles... you can't go wrong.
I'm doin both classical piano and contemp. keyboards and yeah, I'm not a master at both but I've won national comps for classical piano and I'm not SHIT at keyboards... you just have to be able to moderate them both.

[Liquid Shadow]

Are you people kidding? It absolutely ruins a good classical pianist's style. Those two styles contrast so much that it is almost physically impossible to become a "master" of either if you play both. Trust me, I've played jazz, and it has RUINED my classical piano playing

Does jazz use a different technique than classical? No. You are still playing the same keys in the same fashion, just with different notes.


You're full of shit. Now run along and continue to suck at music, which you must have done in the first place if jazz playing could ruin your classical playing. That classical playing of yours would've had to be pretty pathetic to begin with. :roll:





To counter what you are saying...
I have been semi-classically trained for over 5 years now. I started playing jazz on the piano about a year ago. In the last year, I've tackled a Chopin Etude, two Chopin waltzes, Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C# Minor, the entire book of Clementi Sonatinas, one Bach invention, one Bach prelude, most of the Hanon excersises, and have started in the Czerny excersises.

And jazz ruins your classical playing.


:roll: <---that guy says it all

[classicalpianistmaster]

You don't understand. I have won several competitions in the city, 1 state competition, and some random others. I think I know what I"m saying.

Chopin Etude, two Chopin waltzes, Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C# Minor, the entire book of Clementi Sonatinas, one Bach invention, one Bach prelude, most of the Hanon excersises, and have started in the Czerny excersises.

Those are some of the easiest pieces ever. Try a scherzo, opus 31, from chopin. not easy stuff. My technique got messed up because I played jazz too much. those two can be easily merged without you knowing so and is really hard to change back.

[Ael]

You don't understand. I have won several competitions in the city, 1 state competition, and some random others. I think I know what I"m saying.

Chopin Etude, two Chopin waltzes, Rachmaninoff's Prelude in C# Minor, the entire book of Clementi Sonatinas, one Bach invention, one Bach prelude, most of the Hanon excersises, and have started in the Czerny excersises.

Those are some of the easiest pieces ever. Try a scherzo, opus 31, from chopin. not easy stuff. My technique got messed up because I played jazz too much. those two can be easily merged without you knowing so and is really hard to change back.


1) A competition doesn't really mean anything. My friend and I have never won a competition, and we still can outplay some people in this school who can. Competitions are purely political - it doesn't matter how many competitions you have won or not, what matters is how you play and who you are as a musician.

2) If you want to play both styles, your work ethic needs to be a good one. Playing jazz too much - of course you won't be able to play both, you have to find a balance. I think that it is a blanketed immature statement saying you don't know what he is talking about or that we don't know what we're talking about, we all play instruments, I think we have a fair level of knowledge in this field.

You also cannot judge a piece the way you do. Yes, Chopin's Scherzo is pretty hard, but you know what, the difficulty of a piece is not just measured in how fast you can play a scale up and down the keyboard, it's also measured in musicality. Czerny's Etudes were designed to be mastered on both a technical and MUSICAL level. Chopin's Etudes go down as some of the hardest pieces of solo repertoire around. After a while i'ts all pattersn but the expression in a piece always takes more work.

The Hanon Exercises are a bitch - if you play them right. The chopin waltzes are a challenge very much technically but musically as well as Rach's Prelude in C# minor.

If you know how to balance the two you can do it. Besides, a good musician can play virtually any style. Think of Jordan, do you think he still can't has it out classically? I mean he rocks out, he plays jazz, he has blues licks, he knows how to play in all styles...he can still hash it out classically, in fact he has a Bach concert in Rhode Island in May, if that is anything to his credits.

Keith Emerson can mimic and play through any style he wants - yet he still rocks his ass out classically on "Steinway to Heaven". They all do. Any keyboardist/pianist, needs to be able to play any style. They're living testament that you can play classical, and jazz...etc and still not lose your technique. Who are you kidding?

Here, I haven't won competitions, but I do to go to Eastman School of Music, which alongside Curtis Institute and Julliard School of Music, ranks in the top 3 music schools in the WORLD (currently, I think both of these schools are switching ranks by month, last year Julliard was 2nd or 3rd, Eastman was 1st). Oh, and by the way, I haven't won a single competition...but, I am going to one of the top three music schools in the country and the world...which is, right now, more than I can say for you.

[Liquid Shadow]

You don't understand. I have won several competitions in the city, 1 state competition, and some random others. I think I know what I"m saying.


Obviously you don't. Music =/= competition.

How exactly does jazz ruin your classical playing? Explain how this phenomenon occurs, aside from your own personal inadequacies.

If I ate a steak, then went to the doctor and was diagnosed with lung cancer, I could blame the cancer on the steak. I ate the steak, I got cancer. Simple enough. Too bad it doesn't make any sense. Heh, what a coincidence, neither does what you're saying. Your classical playing may have declined, but there's no way it was from playing jazz, just like lung cancer doesn't happen from eating steak.



Those are some of the easiest pieces ever.

That's quite a bold statement. Have you ever even TRIED the songs I mentioned? Let's hear your award-winning self performing that Rach Prelude or the Revolutionary Etude. They're obviously easy enough that any old beginner could play them, since they are the easiest ever, so a seasoned expert like yourself should have no trouble performing them.

:roll:


I know that those peices aren't the most difficult ever, but they are still up there in difficulty level. I'm well aware of the fact that there are more difficult peices out there, but I'm also well aware of the fact that I would prefer to improve my own musicality and composition and improvising skills instead of become another cookie-cutter classical pianist who can play anything in the world but not write anything worth a damn.

Btw, the difficulty was not my point at all. My point was that in the year after taking up jazz, my classical playing ability skyrocketed. Before that, Hanon excersises were kicking my ass, and after getting into jazz I was tackling the Revolutionary Etude. And jazz ruins your classical playing. :roll:


My technique got messed up because I played jazz too much. those two can be easily merged without you knowing so and is really hard to change back.

If jazz and classical can be easily merged, then why would one mess with the other? They would have to be incredibly similar to merge in the first place, and if they merged one way so easily then why wouldn't they merge right back? Is it because you're full of crap?


Let me reiterate: Same keys. Same technique. Different notes. If playing different melodies and chord voicings is going to mess up your technique, then perhaps you aren't a master classical pianist at all. It just goes to show how pathetic competitions are at judging a musician's true skill when their winners can be offset by playing jazz music.

[Scrap]

I think you need to get some perspective.

If you're into music for competition (aka pissing contests), instead of expressiveness, creativity, and love, then you're in it for the wrong reason.

You may be able to play TEH SCHIZAAAROOMG WTF just fine, technically, but musically you can blow some major ass. Competitions are totally political in nature, and therefore cannot, and never will reflect the full spectrum of the performer. Therefore, it's simply pointless, and rather unintelligent to attempt to live up to someone else's unrealistic, fantasy-like expectations of you, and it's also stupid to expect "perfection" out of yourself.

If your brain is indeed getting jumbled by changing styles constantly, then the problem exists between the bench and keyboard. True, WORKING musicians live by having the sort of flexibility that allows them to switch genres/styles instantaneously. Not to glorify Jordan in any way, but he's a good example of this. From A Christmas Carol, to The Paul Winter Consort, over to the Dixie Dregs, and of course DT, he's been able to do it all convincingly and professionally. A keyboardist friend of mine jumps between reggae, jam band, prog, top 40, funk, and classical every week at different gigs. He may not have a classical repitore that he can recall and play in technical perfection that spans several pages, but he can get the job done when needed. But if being a robot and/or human sequencer is your thing, then by all means, enjoy, but don't knock other music styles just because it's not as elite as you are. :P

To an average musician, flexibility is the most important thing to work on and aspire to be.

[kevmo_fan]

ROGER THAT, MATES.

You've won state n national comps.. so what? so have I. So yeah. I think I know what I'm talking about too.

Scrap is right. A good musician can adapt to whatever he/she is playing. If you truly have that feel for the music and you LOVE what you're doing, then no matter what you play, you'll be able to manage.

[Georges]

I tend to believe that classical playing rather ruins your jazz playing (if at all) and not vice versa. Classical playing is subject to many restrictive rules which fall apart in jazz (in particular for two aspects: harmony and improvisation).

Playing jazz should however not ruin your classical playing. One should know that some jazz styles are actually derived from baroque styles. Therefore, jazz should be seen as an extension to classical music.

Blues is a different subject, for blues is completely different way of thinking, i.e. has nothing to do with classical or jazz music (except for the bebop styles).

[Ael]

Playing many styless doesnt ruin the other if you're a good musician and realize that everything comes from one point. Don't forget that a lot of classical music was originally improvised by Mozart, Bach, and Beethoven in their day, just like Jazz is today...different rules dont mean that your technique in one style wlil be crippled because another style has different rules.

[Georges]

Opening yourself up is not only a matter of playing, it is above all a matter of listening.

Let's take the following example:
Good progressive rock/metal music is the result of musicians who have opened themselves up to other sorts of music; musicians who only listen to progressive rock/metal will never open themselves up to other sorts of music and thus will never be able to write good progressive rock/metal songs!

Therefore, think in less purist ways, open yourself up. Listen to other music. You will of course never be able to become proficient within both classical and jazz music, but at least you may be able to take out what you need most for your own music.

General conclusion: Hanon will ruin your classical AND jazz playing because it's all about forgetting what music is ...

[Ael]

Hanon doesn't ruin your playing really. I mean, yes, it's not musical, but at the same time..it does build your fingers up...a balance of Czerny and Hanon covers a lot of the musical aspects and technical.

*Then again...there is not book for technique and exercises that will ever let you experiment with musicality...musicality comes from the pieces you play...no exercise can "help you" with musical expression.

[Liquid Shadow]

General conclusion: Hanon will ruin your classical AND jazz playing because it's all about forgetting what music is ...

False.

Musicality and technique are completely different things. Hanon is geared towards improving your technique, which has no negative effect on your musicality. It would actually have a positive effect, because as your technique improves, the possibilities of what you can play start to expand, and thus you have more ways to express yourself.

If you can play scales in 16ths at 200bpm, you can express yourself with quick, intense music, but you can also slow down to be more serene whenever you feel like it. However, the opposite cannot be said. If all you can do is play slow, serene music, you will never be able to express emotions that require speed and intensity.

[Caio]

I think the problem is if you want to become a master pianist of one of the two types of music.

I mean, Chick Corea and Keith Jarret are really good at classical piano, but there are many (not famous) people who can play the classic piano like them.

And Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli used to improve jazz piano with Oscar Peterson because he liked his jazz a lot...
But he never became a "master" of jazz.

I think when you're a musical genius, you can choose what you like, classic or jazz: you can play both the styles, but I think you can master only one of them.

[Ael]

I think you can master any style and as many as you want if you put enough work..it's not like the day you master jazz that God comes down adn goes "that's it, no more master of classical for you."

[Scrap]

I think this whole thread can be summed up with this:

"Well, that's a matter of opinion and I really don't give a fuck about yours."

Next please. :P

[Lurion]

I think this whole thread can be summed up with this:

"Well, that's a matter of opinion and I really don't give a fuck about yours."

Next please. :P

Sad but true!! The everlasting "what the frick is music all about anyways" discussion!! Anyway, I'll alwais say that although I know conservatory people who might kick my ass at interpreting stuff (mainly because a don't usually sit and learn pieces, but that's a long and different story that's got something to do with my upstairs neighbour) they would suck very hard at playing in any band. On the contrary, people who are trained in jazz have extre abilities. And there are good examples (wich have already been stated) of jazz pianist who can do a great job at classical, but still, there are loads of top notch classical interpreters that kick ass at jaz or any other style, basically because that's what being a musician is all about, IMO!!!

[kevmo_fan]

I think this whole thread can be summed up with this:

"Well, that's a matter of opinion and I really don't give a fuck about yours."

Next please. :P

OK Agreed.

[shit, that was my opinion... no one gives a fuck though!!!!!!]

:lol:

[Mendelssohn]

Keith Jarret is classical trained and he is the most versatile pianist in the world, he plays jazz, blues, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven and new age.



Patrick Moraz, Jordan Rudess and Tony Macalpine play jazz and all of them studied classical piano in a serious way.


Daniel Barenboim is one of the best classical pianists of all the times and i´ve seen him on TV playing jazz and he kicks ass.

CONCLUSION: A good classical trained pianist can play all kinds of music.

[Ael]

Daniel Baremboin is one of the best classical pianists of all the times and i´ve seen him on TV playing jazz and he kicks ass.



Side note...Daniel Barenboim is a horrible classical musician...he sucks the music out of everything... lol

[Over The Edge]

DB is an awesome pianist in my opinion. Yes, he can
play wonderful renditions of Tatum and Peterson as well.



FL
www.franklucas.net