Hi Guys again.... Mic problem..... [Archive] - Jordan Rudess' Community Forums

View Full Version : Hi Guys again.... Mic problem.....

Rofellos

07-27-2004, 12:10 PM

lighthouse

07-27-2004, 02:01 PM

Hi again Rofellos, I tottaly agree that you have to buy those sm57, they`re simply great and a standard mic for guitar cabinets, snare drums and acustic instruments.

About large diafragm condenser mics (for recording vocals and pretty much every acustic instrument and even drum overheads), I would recommend the AKG414 ULS, it`s just great, and if you can afford it is a great investment. I think it`s about $650, not very sure, but you can check it out.

If you plan to record drums I recomend the Shure Beta for the kick drum, the sm57 for the snare, a couple of shure sm81 for the overheads, and a set of AKG drum mics for toms and stuff.....
Of course there`s always much more expensive choices, but with the ones I`ve told you about you can be sure of getting excelent results!

Any other question feel free to ask!

Juan Pablo

Spacehog

07-27-2004, 02:44 PM

I'd 2nd what lighthouse is saying, except that I'd say to go with the AKG D112 for the kick drum, because it's the industry standard and available in a set with the little clip-on tom mics! Don't get the C1000's to use for overheads though, they're not really suitable for the purpose as they lack top end. OK for hihat, and great for saxophone and congas etc, but not ideal for drum overheads.

The 414 is an expensive choice, there are many cheaper good quality large diaphragm condenser microphones available, particularly a load from China that have recently come onto the market. You could get a good valve mic from someone like Studio Electronics for a similar price as the 414, or a matched pair that you could also use for overheads.

Martin

Rofellos

07-27-2004, 04:20 PM

hi again... ok thx guys for the tips I will check those out... now I have another question... like I said before that I got only a 4/4 audio interface how should i mic the drums? should I use a stereo mic at all? or should i just go with bas/snare/hihat/tom? or what?? or should I use bas/virvel/stereo???

lighthouse

07-27-2004, 04:40 PM

well.....with just only 4 inputs is kinda hard to record drums, cause you`ll have less control over the sound of the kit cause you`ll have just four tracks for the whole kit!. For example you can have: 1mic for the kick drum, 1 for the snare, 2 overheads and thats it. There are some tricks to use more mics and have more tracks: you can have a mic preamp with two inputs and two outputs and use a stereo cable to mix the signal from the preamp to a single stereo input, and then in the recording software you`re using split the stereo signal into two mono tracks, using the left and right inputs of your card. You can do this multiple times with a few preamps to get more tracks. There are of course other things you can experiment with once you get to know the capabilities of your sound card.
BTW does your card has a built in preamp? cause if not you should think of buying one for recording, specially for the phantom power for condenser mics.

There are drumers who can record their kits with just a few mics, but thats very hard cause they`ll have to have control of their volume all over the song!!

Hope this helps you!
Juan Pablo

Rofellos

07-27-2004, 04:47 PM

thx lighthouse that helped me alot... no my soundcard does not have a pre amp mic in it... but I think I will manage... I have some very good musician friends who can help me alot.. who are pro´s.. nad i dont need to worry about the drummer have to keep a control of his volume all the time... he is a good drummer he practice that all the time :D... But thx I shall try... cant really afford everything yet need to buy a new computer first... and some active monitors, and its a good thing that I dont need to worry about mics I have a couple of friends who are professional DJ:s and Studio Engineer... They can borrow me some mics :) so now there is nothing more to do than just order the stuff :)

lighthouse

07-27-2004, 05:16 PM

Glad I could help.....yeah when buying equipment and finding out what you can do with it the best thing you can do is ask for help! specially when you have friends with a lot of experience on the field, as you have....
Good luck with your buy and feel free to ask more questions

Juan Pablo

Spacehog

07-27-2004, 05:20 PM

The traditional way to record drums (still used in country and jazz, and the way to get the classic Led Zep drum sound) is a mic on the kick, one on the snare and a pair of overhead / room mics. You'll need mic preamps, particularly for the overheads as they're likely to be condenser mics. Individual "voice"channels for snare and kick, with built in compressors etc could be useful for getting a good sound easily, and then a stereo mic preamp for the overheads, and you're there :) Close-micing toms gives a very artificial sound (which, strangely, is what people are used to now in rock music!) whereas with a simple setup like this, you get to hear the real acoustic sounds of the drums...

Martin

Rofellos

07-27-2004, 05:21 PM

thank you very much! this is THE best forum on the internet were you can get this much information on everything regarding music :) I will turn my head this way if I have anything else I need to know about... I will post a picture off my studio when I am done with it.. so then everyone can see how it turned out... :) THX again to all!......oooh yeah now I remember one thing!.... what mixer should I buy when I need like 8 mic input and then I need Talkback? is there any cheap one???

Tigerfolly

07-27-2004, 10:10 PM

Hi!

Now I have a little problem... i´ve got a cheap Audiosport Quattro 4/4 and now I have to buy some mics to record with? what are your suggestions again the budget is low... I was thinking like buying 2x Shure SM57 and 1x Rode NT5 or NT4 ? please share your wisdom on mics with me..

/Thx

It really depends on what you're going to record. You've got four inputs, but if you pick up a mixer you can record quite a bit more at one time.. but you won't have individual control over all of the tracks. If you're going to be recording live drums and want it to sound good, you need to step up a bit more in the gear department. If you just want to throw together some demos and such, you can get by with what you've got, but drums will always be a problem for your setup.

Giving recommendations on mics when we don't know what you're going to use them for is tough, but here's a few general suggestions that work with any studio:

1. Spend as much money as you possibly can on a large diaphragm condenser. I can't stress this enough. There's a phrase we use in our studio; "Shit in, shit out". It doesn't matter if you're recording the greatest sounding instrument in the world, if you record it with a crappy mic you're just wasting your time. Save up some money, and get something worth it. The same goes for a preamp when you get to that stage of things.. but seriously, put the largest chunk of your budget into a good studio condenser.

Here's a few recommendations. My prices might be a bit out of date, it's been over a year since I worked the retail side of things. I'm also keeping the prices here below $1,000.. because you said "budget". If you want a great vocal mic for more, the BLUE Mouse ($1,200) and the Neumann U87 ($2,500) are always there :)

BLUE Blueberry: $800
AKG C414: $800
BLUE Baby Bottle: $500
Groove Tubes GT-55: $500
Shure KSM32: $500
Rode NTK: $500
Shure KSM27: $300
Oktava MK-319: $200

Stay away from the Oktava MK-219 though.. those are crapola. As far as I know, you can only get Oktavas from Guitar Center and/or Musician's Friend.. but that could've changed in the last couple of years.

2. Get at least one SM-57. The workhorse of the industry, it works well on -everything-. It's not always the best on everything, but it will -always- work well. They're cheap, easy to find, and they're damn near bulletproof. I use mine mainly for snares, guitar cabs, bass cabs (for mids and highs), certain vocals, keyboard cabs (for leads, EPs and organs), and for percussion. Combining this mic with a condenser gives you amazing flexibility and options later in the mix. And combining it with a good kick drum mic can give you some awesome keyboard and bass tones.

3. Get a pair of mics to record things in stereo. If you're going to do any stereo recording, you need a matching set of mics to do it. You can kill two birds with one stone by getting two vocal condensers. Although that gets expensive, it really allows for a very flexible recording setup. I just wanted a pair of condensers to record some demo stuff, and for various live miking applications, but didn't want to spend the money to pick up two nice large diaphragm mics. A friend recommended the Oktava MK-012s to me, and I use them EVERYWHERE now. I call those mics my "ears", because when I put them up, they get the exact same sound on tape as I'm hearing in the room. They're small cylindrical condensers that normally go for $100 each, although Guitar Center and Musicians Friend both run frequent sales that allow you to buy one, get one free. Two kickass condensers for $100? You simply cannot beat that anywhere.

If you're going to look at drums and a mixer, you're jumping into a very expensive realm. My drum miking rig was never meant to be anything all that great.. I never intended on doing anything more than demos with it, because if I want to do masters I'm going to do it in a professional room anyway, and all of my friends with great rooms also have great mics. Here's my base set of mics, what they cost me, what I use them for, and a short explanation.

Shure KSM27: $300 - Vocals, acoustic instruments, cabinet miking, room miking, percussion. I like the sound of the mylar diaphragm in the KSM27 better than the gold sputtered mylar diaphragm in the KSM32. It's a little brighter in the high mids and fatter to my ears, although the KSM32 has more detail in the highs. I kick myself to this day for not buying a BLUE Baby Bottle instead, but I was cheap and wanted to save $200 >.<

Shure SM-57 (2): $160 - Vocals, snare (top and bottom), cabinet miking, percussion. What more can be said about the SM-57?

Oktava MK-012 (2): $100 - Vocals, acoustic instruments, stereo applications, live recordings, percussion. See above. Supposedly hand assembled in the former Soviet Union, and they come with a -10db pad for really loud drummers. :P

Sennheiser E602: $200 - Kick, bass cabinets, large percussion, acoustic bass. My first studio partner had a hard-on for this mic, so we got it. It's not bad, but I'd MUCH rather have an AKG-D112 or a Shure Beta 52, in that order.. but all in all, it's not a bad mic. It's just not as good as a D112.

Sennheiser E604 (3): $250 - Toms. Clip on style mics that are a little larger than the AKG, Audix and Shure versions, which I like. The only thing that would replace these would be a set of Shure Beta 58s, but that's just because they're so tiny and look cool. :)

So it cost me $1,000 in mics to mic drums, and I went as cheap as you can get without sacrificing too much quality. That's not including the mixer you're going need to do it, and if you're recording you don't want a piece of garbage Behringer mixer.. you're going to want something a little more solid and a little less noisy like a Mackie or something.

Instead, what I would recommend to you would be this:

Vocal mic: At -least- a KSM27, but try for one of the $500 mics.
Workhorse mic: SM-57.
Matched pair: Oktava MK-012s
Kick drum: D112, Beta 52, or an E609.

Whenever you record, get your room sounding as good as possible. Get some soundproofing material (either soundproof foam, or if you're on a budget, go up to a Wal-Mart or something and get foam rubber mattress pads. They look like of like big egg cartons, and they're usually an annoying color like pink or yellow, but they do the job) and cover up any reflective materials like walls, windows, mirrors, or hardwood floors. Unless your room sounds awesome, live miking ends up sounding like crap.

When doing drums, mic the kick with the kick mic, the snare with a 57, and use your matched pair for overheads. Set the overheads up with the left pointing more towards the high hat, the right pointing more towards the ride, and try and center them over the snare drum so that the snare isn't louder in the left or right side. It's not the greatest, most flexible setup in the world, but you can get some really good results. Below 's a rehearsal I recorded for some friends. It's all live except for the keyboards, which I overdubbed later for fun. The drums were miked with the E609, the SM-57, and the Oktava MK-102s. The acoustic guitar was direct from an Ovation acoustic, and the bass was DI'd from a Trace Elliot preamp. I did a little EQ and compression on it, but overall it's pretty raw.

Also, excuse the rough performances on it.. it's from their third rehearsal ever ;)

"What If (Edit)" (http://exit3.i-55.com/~tigerfolly/media/What%20If%20(Edit).mp3)
Credits:
Written by Gwen Mitchell
Guitar: Gwen Mitchell
Bass: Mark Vasquez
Drums: Phil Goodrich
Hammond Organ: Chris Gardner

Produced, engineered, mixed, blah blah blah: Chris Gardner

P.S. There also a track and some info on another post. The drums on that song were recording with the same mic setup, and same drummer.. although it was a different kit.. but you can hear that in a mix with distorted guitars and stuff, the mics still do a good job. http://jordanrudess.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2984

Rofellos

07-28-2004, 05:23 AM

thank you !!! that helped me out alot!!! starting to see clearer things now...
well now I dont have to worry about a mixer anymore... talked to my brother and he´ll lend me his...Midas Venice 240.... thx!!!! gotta start planning...

Tigerfolly

07-28-2004, 12:38 PM