Is Train Of Thought a Dream Theater album?

[Aris_Berd]

Hello to everyone. I wanted to make this forum a long time ago, since I first heared to ToT. The main reason is that album and Jordan's «relationship» with that. I know Dream Theater many years and expected the best work, since there was JR on keyboards. However, when I first listened to ToT, I have to say that is hadn't amazed me at all. On the top of that, I still think that Dream Theater's best work (as they are saying ToT is) isn't this album. John Petrucci and Mike Portnoy have made it too heavy metal, drawing away from DT's music style. Neither Jordan is playing those pretty things in Metropolis or 6DOIT (or even at the LTE). That's all my opininion. I made this forum to hear yours. Do you think that have Dream Theater followed the right way with this album or is it an overthrow??? Has Jordan Rudess actively participated in it or he is just a keyboardist of a Heavy Metal Band ??

Thanks in advance for reading this forum.
-aris

[Liquid Shadow]

Rudess wrote most of the album, and he's doing a lot more on it than you would initially think.

And, this is not DT's new direction. It was a one time thing that they felt like trying (making a "classic" metal album) but they have said that it is not at all indicative of the direction they are heading with their music.


Personally, it's my least favorite DT album, but not because it's bad, just because the other DT albums were so good. There are some really good (and some bad) moments on it, and overall I don't think it was too shabby at all...but then again, I'm into a lot of metal anyways. I know that a lot of DT fans who like the lighter stuff don't really like ToT, so luckily for them this is not a new trend for DT's music.

[Aris_Berd]

I understand what you are saying. I have to admit that, despite being a Heavy Metal album, it is still Dream Theater. It has many Dream Theater things, but with other style. But, I don't really think that Jordan did a lot about this album. Ok, he is playing really interesting things, but in the past, he had played much more interesting. Another thing to say that Jordan is a little bit away in that album is the guitar: it sounds louder that it should be. Many times, it even covers the voice. Futhermore, there are times through ToT, so that while you hearing you can't say that's a DT album. In the end, I don't think that Jordan has participated so much. If he has, he doesn't show that.
I don't really thing he knows playing the Guitar better than John Petrucci to write most parts of that album.

[Tigerfolly]

I understand what you are saying. I have to admit that, despite being a Heavy Metal album, it is still Dream Theater. It has many Dream Theater things, but with other style. But, I don't really think that Jordan did a lot about this album. Ok, he is playing really interesting things, but in the past, he had played much more interesting. Another thing to say that Jordan is a little bit away in that album is the guitar: it sounds louder that it should be. Many times, it even covers the voice. Futhermore, there are times through ToT, so that while you hearing you can't say that's a DT album. In the end, I don't think that Jordan has participated so much. If he has, he doesn't show that.
I don't really thing he knows playing the Guitar better than John Petrucci to write most parts of that album.

You've really got to listen carefully for Jordan's keyboard sounds, but they're most definitely there. On certain speakers, the keyboards are actually quite loud in fact! The keyboard parts are a little more abrasive and distorted, so they mesh very well with the overall mix of the album. Since they had played Metallica's "Master of Puppets" and Iron Maiden's "Killers" on the 6DOIT tour, and both of those bands had two guitar players (and zero keyboard players), Jordan essentially functioned as a second guitar player for those songs, playing guitar parts on his keyboard as well as, if not better than the originals. If you haven't heard them pull this off live, it's pretty cool.

http://www.ytsejamrecords.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=6&idproduct=16

Listen carefully, and you'll hear Jordan playing along with and playing off of the riffs on the album. He also wrote a LOT for it. If you haven't already, take your copy of Train of Thought, log into DreamTheater.net and check out the writing and recording of the album.

I view TOT like it's a concept album.. but instead of a story concept, it's a style concept. Kind of cool if you're into it.. but some fans weren't. On the other hand, it has gotten them a lot of airplay, and has made for an excellent live show.

There are rumors that the next Dream Theater album is going to be leaning into a more progressive direction.. but with Dream Theater, you just never know. Inspiration can strike in many ways.. I personally can't wait to see what they come up with next.

[Awake]

I think it's an absolutely ghastly album. It isn't prog, and I'm not even convinced it's Dream Theater - there is nothing about this album that makes me think of Dream Theater, beyond James' voice. Dream Theater, for me, is summed up by Petrucci's comment on 5YiaL: "one of our biggest influences is Yes, and you can really hear it in our orchestrations. But where it's reflective of our generation is the haviness and the sounds". Not a lot of orchestration on TrOT, period. It is particularly ironic that they chose to pilfer the acronym of a song that showcases everything that was right and good about pre-1998 DT - Trial of Tears for an album that showcases everything that's gone wrong at this point. Ghastly and narcissistic lyrics, monomaniacal bilge musically. Not even a hint of the sheer beauty that DT have showed us they can create, all subsumed beneath ragged, downtuned guitars, synths that sound like ragged, downtuned guitars, and widdle-widdle solos. Every opportunity for sudden musical vertical take-off missed, every opportunity for a non-widdly solos strenuously avoided. "Let down" isn't even the word. Absolute gutter trash.

Per all this, I have zero faith in DT's next album. The decision to tour with Yes is encouraging, tentatively, as maybe this will re-awaken a desire to write prog rock. I have much faith, however for Jordan's forthcoming album, as it seems that JR is the only DT member providing anything of any interest to me at the moment. Feeding the Wheel was excellent, and his contributions to SFaM and 6D have been the most interesting things about those albums.

In short, I think it's horrible, I think it's beneath their abilities, and I hope against expectation that it's a one-off that we'll soon be able to forget, DT's equivalent of Drama.

[Spacehog]

it seems that JR is the only DT member providing anything of any interest to me at the moment

I don't quite agree with you there, although I respect your opinion. But the album that Mike's just recorded with Neal Morse and Randy George should be by far the most interesting release of the year, for me at least. Hmmm, I've not heard Adam & Eve yet though, nothing to do with DT, but the new Flower Kings album is released tomorrow.

I don't really see where this DT-bashing is helping. I personally was unimpressed with TOT when I first heard it. To sit and listen to the whole album, in one, is too much. Live it worked, because it has a whole lot of energy, but listening at home I don't think it's as successful. However, listen to individual tracks in a playlist with other DT stuff, and the songs all stand up fine. It's just too intense an experience.

I agree that it's not very prog-y, in the accepted sense of the word. Someone in another thread made some comments about what "prog" as a musical style is, some of which I agreed with, and some I didn't. But DT have never been a true prog band, they fall somewhere between prog and metal, and slide between those points from album to album. I'm not a metaller, so I prefer the more "prog" elements, which is why 6Degrees is my favourite album... but the songs from TOT for the most part still stand up. I made my criticisms at the time of release about too much widdly-widdly from JP, and I personally don't like the way that JM's lyrics have been ignored on recent albums as I think he always wrote the most thought-provoking lyrics.

I've never let one album turn me off a band, and I'm not going to let this one do either. If the next album becomes TOT pt2, then maybe I'll rethink, but as long as DT manage to curb the MP/JP ego-trip there's still plenty to hope for in the next album.

All just IMO...
Martin

[keys76]

Wow, those new topics keep amazing me.
I thought we had a topic about Disrespect?

I'm reading some things in this topic that I find are quite disrespectful to Jordan. I know from the first hand that Jordan wrote a lot of Train of Thought, together with JP and JM. Mike doesn't write that much but he's the master in putting parts together.

Imagine you've worked months on a new album and people are telling: "Well, Jordan didn't write a lot on that album."

That hurts man... :cry:

However, I'm convinced that the people on this Forum never mean to be rude or anything, but maybe it's OK to sometimes read your message again, before submitting it to the Forum.

Just my 2 cents...

Take care,
Jeroen

[Nolan]

Well before we end up with a big thread, and have to call Enigma in :)....

It's ok not to like this album, but don't presume things (about who wrote what).

In my circle of friends (yes, I have them) people really like this one (and didn't buy the previous one) and people who will sit this one out.

Fact is that DT wanted to do this, and for some people it is not yet clear that Jordan had a big part in this album even if we have to do some effort to really hear it.

I'm not telling everything DT or Jordan does is sacred.
Personally I'm more into JR then into DT.

Like Jeroen said (yo bro) re-read your post and try to watch the chosen words.
Sometimes things look more offensive then (maybe) meant to be


Father Coen :wink:

[keys76]

8)
Amen!

Jeroen :keys:

[Michael B. - The Mirror]

http://www.dreamtheater.net/covers/train_of_thought.jpg

hmm, am i wrong or does the cover read "Dream Theater" ?? so i guess your question should be answered. all members of DT (wich includes JR btw) really LIKE ToT, this Album turned out exactly the way they wanted it.

[Ehren]

Hmm - I'm still building my collection of Dream Theater CD's - I buy one every time I get a paycheck - and Train of Thought is definitely at the bottom of my list of things to buy. To be honest, though, I haven't even given it a chance. I didn't really like As I Am or This Dying Soul, but maybe I'll enjoy the rest of the album more.

At any rate, I respect all of DT's music, and I have faith that they'll explore yet a new direction with their next CD.

Speaking of that CD, we don't know anything about it yet, do we?

[Michael B. - The Mirror]

Speaking of that CD, we don't know anything about it yet, do we?

absolutly nothing! :wink:

[Ibanez86]

I think it's an absolutely ghastly album. It isn't prog, and I'm not even convinced it's Dream Theater - there is nothing about this album that makes me think of Dream Theater, beyond James' voice. Dream Theater, for me, is summed up by Petrucci's comment on 5YiaL: "one of our biggest influences is Yes, and you can really hear it in our orchestrations. But where it's reflective of our generation is the haviness and the sounds". Not a lot of orchestration on TrOT, period. It is particularly ironic that they chose to pilfer the acronym of a song that showcases everything that was right and good about pre-1998 DT - Trial of Tears for an album that showcases everything that's gone wrong at this point. Ghastly and narcissistic lyrics, monomaniacal bilge musically. Not even a hint of the sheer beauty that DT have showed us they can create, all subsumed beneath ragged, downtuned guitars, synths that sound like ragged, downtuned guitars, and widdle-widdle solos. Every opportunity for sudden musical vertical take-off missed, every opportunity for a non-widdly solos strenuously avoided. "Let down" isn't even the word. Absolute gutter trash.

Per all this, I have zero faith in DT's next album. The decision to tour with Yes is encouraging, tentatively, as maybe this will re-awaken a desire to write prog rock. I have much faith, however for Jordan's forthcoming album, as it seems that JR is the only DT member providing anything of any interest to me at the moment. Feeding the Wheel was excellent, and his contributions to SFaM and 6D have been the most interesting things about those albums.

In short, I think it's horrible, I think it's beneath their abilities, and I hope against expectation that it's a one-off that we'll soon be able to forget, DT's equivalent of Drama.


Man, some people just can't stop whining about TOT..... :roll:



I think your post is very disrespectfull. I mean, I can understand that some people may not like TOT, but you're just saying it's "Gutter trash" and that you have zero faith in DT's next album. Imagine Jordan browsing this forum and reading your post about what he thinks is a masterpiece..... :(


well.... I'm glad I can enjoy TOT: it's my 2nd favourite DT album. :D

[Awake]

Imagine Jordan browsing this forum and reading your post about what he thinks is a masterpiece..... :( You have to hope so, really. I dislike the album, and I fervently hope they never repeat this "experiment". Whatever they may claim to the contrary, bands are often influenced by the reaction of fans, and if they read that people who have been interested in Dream Theater for a long time are absolutely repulsed by their last album, I can only hope that it might maybe have some impact.

[St0rMl0rD]

Well...
I don't think Train of Thought is really a standard Dream Theater album, since in the past they had long songs with many different themes included, and on ToT there seems to be on almost every song one main melody...

It's acctually a shame, because if they had included different themes, we all could learn something from ToT, but now...

I really don't know... :roll: :?

[Aris_Berd]

As Awake said :"Whatever they may claim to the contrary, bands are often influenced by the reaction of fans, and if they read that people who have been interested in Dream Theater for a long time are absolutely repulsed by their last album, I can only hope that it might maybe have some impact."

In my opinion, DT maybe wanted to attract other kind of funs; more heavy metal ones. However, let's hope that in the future, they will continue being the old Dream Theater.

[SHP]

if they read that people who have been interested in Dream Theater for a long time are absolutely repulsed by their last album, I can only hope that it might maybe have some impact.
i think TOT's their worst album. hopefully ever. even though i'm with you on this, and agree with almost everything you say, i think it's no use whining. it has happened in the past, and will happen in the future that one of your favorite bands puts out an album that you don't like. and even though i was upset about the CD too (not that i had high expectations after i'd heard excerpts off of it) i shut up when i created a poll on mikeportnoy.com. it had one really simple question: do you like TOT ? yes or no ?
i expected the results to be around 50-50. much to my surprise 90% of the forumers answered yes.

[Awake]

i think TOT's their worst album. hopefully ever. even though i'm with you on this, and agree with almost everything you say, i think it's no use whining. it has happened in the past, and will happen in the future that one of your favorite bands puts out an album that you don't like.If it's just one album, then that's fine. Unfortunately, the band has been in decline for five years, IMO. 6D had some good songs and some great ideas - including JP's best solos for some time, and all of the best leads JR has played with DT - struggling to get out from under deadweight, leaden production. SFaM was was indisputably prog rock, but there were very few things that I liked, with the main exceptions of OLT and FF. Why? Because both of them were very much more keyboard-oriented; the music was in balance again. I like keyboard oriented music. I like songs that aren't just a bunch of guitar riffs. I like my harmonic progressions stated rather than just implied.


even though i was upset about the CD too, i shut up when i created a poll on mikeportnoy.com. it had one really simple question: do you like TOT ? yes or no ? i expected the results to be around 50-50. much to my surprise 90% of the forumers answered yes.If there are a vocal number of fans who like the album, then all the more reason why the people who didn't like TrOT should speak up, lest DT get the impression that everyone liked the album.

[The White Raven]

i'm not 100% agree with aris but in some points i'm agree with hm.

tot it's more a heavy meal album and i like more the albums before tot

this album goes away from what progressive metal is.

[MarkDTMMZ]

Train of Thought is a guitar heavy metal album, and ask the keyboardist, Jordan didn't come as much to the forefront as he has in other albums. I commend Jordan for being an intelligent musician and having the ear to know when to step back. So many people are troubled that there aren't enough keyboards, but if the keys did too much, it would overshadow the metal direction they were looking for in this album. There is a time and place for everything, and when it called for the keyboards to be prominent he came in strong like he always does. I know in my band, when the guitars start getting heavy, it's time for me as a keyboardist and switch gears and either support them with some color, or just lay out. The outcome of the song is more important than the individual player at that point. IMO, Train of Thought is an excellent, excellent record that shows DT lossening up and letting their balls flap out a bit. It's still the classic heavy DT, but with a little more classic metal dirt around the edges which was nice to hear from them. Dream Theater is such a special band because they can do so many different things so well. I'm excited to hear what they will experiment with next time.

Mark
www.mmzband.com

"Hey Lois, it's the two symbols of the Republican Party...an elephant, and a fat white guy who's threatened by change." -Peter Griffin, Family Guy

[goo-goo]

I don't post that much here (or at all) by I must give props to Mark. That's one of the best arguements I have ever heard regarding ToT.

I love ToT, not because of the heaviness, but because its another side of DT. I love DT's heavy songs, but I love the prog side as well. Being able to have taken 3 different directions since Jordan joined the band is something that has to be taken into account even though if it was a preconceived idea by the producers (JP and MP) or many fans not liking whatever direction. SFAM had a perfect blend of "metal or heavyness" and prog.. I think 6DoIT is masterpiece considering all the proggy elements they showed (specially during the 1st disc, which had many elements. 2nd disc is more classic prog). ToT is just metal with prog elements, and considering the idea the guys had (classic metal album), it would of been crazy that the keyboard would of overshadowed JP's playing. There has never been (in my knowledge) a classic heavy album having the keyboards as the main element. It has always been the guitar, with the drums following

[Awake]

if the keys did too much, it would overshadow the metal direction they were looking for in this album.Personally, my hope would be not an overshadowing of the heavy metal direction, but its circumvention - hopefully, more keys = less metal direction.


However, that having been said:
I know in my band, when the guitars start getting heavy, it's time for me as a keyboardist and switch gears and either support them with some color, or just lay out.I point to revious heavy sections in DT songs - Caught in a Web, the heavy section of Voices, and the archetypical heavy DT track, Pull Me Under - as examples of how keyboards can add to heavy sounds without just acting like a second guitar (playing along with the riff using a distorted synth sound).


It's still the classic heavy DTDT has rarely been so monomaniacally heavy metal for the duration of a single song, and never for an entire album.

[Liquid Shadow]

I'm with Awake on this part of the discussion...keyboards can be used just fine over heavy guitar work.
The Mirror and Lie were pretty damned heavy, but also had examples of when keyboard can be played over a heavy riff and not take anything away at all. Look at the Mirror....Petrucci plays one note (the lowest on his guitar, no less) until after JLB starts singing, but that intro is anything but boring.

Why?

Heavy guitar playing does not automatically mean that the keyboardist has to sit back and let it be heavy on its own.

Another example: Symphony X - Fallen. The verses have the heavy groove of the guitar riff, but the string progression over it. That's one heavy riff, and not at all un-heavy-fied by that keyboard part.
You can do that with any riff. Think of any simple, heavy, metal guitar ostinato and get a friend to play it, then start playing chords with a soft patch (a pad or strings or whatnot) and you'll be surprised what can be done with that.
Just thought of another example...Symphony X - King of Terrors. Two notes on the guitar during that ostinato, and yet it's not boring at all because of Pinella's keyboard melodies over it.

[TheMagician]

Personally it was ToT that got me into Dream Theater in the first place - and now I own most of the albums, it still rates as one of the best albums I own.

I don't buy the prog/metal/whatever pigeon-holing. DT produce amazing, complex, and interesting music that I can't stop listening to. It doesn't matter whether I'm listening to the Silent Man or to Honor Thy Father - they are both to me DT playing great music. My music collection covers music ranging from the BeeGees to Tool and back again - any intelligently written and interesting music catches my attention.

Just spare me boring music and boring lyrics and I'm happy! DT have never dissapointed me on that front.

[Human Machine]

I understand that everyone has a right to their opinion, but I'll have to say this. I've have lost some respect for many people in this forum. Mark, excellent points. I couldn't agree with you more. Ok ok, I'll admit....the first time I heard ToT I really didn't care much for it, but that's because I was expecting the typical DT album. I'll have to say though, now that I've listened to it many times, and can appreciate it for what they were trying to do....I absolutely love this album. I personally think most people couldn't be more wrong about JR parts. I love what he does. Sure he could play some pads or strings or even some organ style chords under the guitars...that would have been the easy thing to do, but he really dove into things and gave alot of thought to what the feel of the music was and tried to do something new and different. Sure sure, maybe it's not typical DT/ Kevin Moore stuff. But it's not Kevin Moore. This is Jordan Rudess. I think it's great. He made tons of new patches just for the ToT album. Anyone could have put chordy pad sounds underneath the music but Jordan decided to be subtle in other ways, and still keep it heavy. I actually listedn to the album for inspiration when trying to figure out different things to do under a heavy guitar riff.
I was under the impression that people were a bit more open minded to new ideas and different ways of doing things, but I guess I was wrong (although I should have guessed that when I made the mistake of posting the thread about Jordan using a Korg) instead of Kurzweil.
Now I'm not directing this post at anyone in particular.....because I certainly don't think DT is infallable, and I completely understand this is just another subjective topic; however I appaulled by the way this topic is being handled. Constructivce critisism is one thing, but putting someone down is something competely different.
My opinion...I really really like this album. I think SFAM is the best album, but I still like ToT. Lots of you don't like it, and that's fine, but to say some of the things that are being said is just immature and down-right rude to both JR and the people on this forum.
You know what, maybe I'm wrong here. Maybe opinion, whether it be negatively or positively aggressive and passionate is still opinion and thus if you're passionate about not liking the album, then I suppose you have the right to express how you feel, be it aggressive or not. I guess my gripe is some of the reasons for not liking it, but then again that's subjective too. hmmm..... I guess there are a lot of points I'd like to argue, but I just don't have the energy to do so, nor do I care enough about what other people think of my opinions.
There's a quote I once heard....."Only a fool enters a fools argument" Damn, I hate being played a fool!

Brian

[koma666]

I disaggree:

MP said in an interview about TOT that JR still cant believe that they have realy done such an album! So I think:
They all love the album and they all wrote some parts and stuff and bla bla......
BUT at the end of the day they were somehow surprised that it turned out that heavy and I think a lot of people are also a little bit surprised (like me) about the roughness and heavyness of TOT. And that has nothing to do with disrespect. I also think it would have been cool if you could hear JR a little bit more in the mix but.... Nevertheless its still a cool record.

koma
........
:twisted: :twisted:

[MarkDTMMZ]

You're absolutely right that keyboards can work in a heavy situation such as songs on Awake and the Odyssey and other bands like Type O Negative, but they may have not worked on tunes on Train of Thought. We weren't in the rehearsal room with them, and they may have tried it, and didn't work. Who knows, all I'm saying that it's cool and commendable to lay out too if that's what the song calls for rather than forcing yourself upon the work. Train of Thought is a very well constructed album, something that I don't think DT gets enough credit for.
Keyboards over a heavy riff can take away or compliment, I think Jordan did a good job on ToT, finding where it was good to compliment and when to lay back.

Mark
www.mmzband.com

[Nick]

i think you're all wrong about tot been a dt album..i reckon they got busted or someone to do it instead, its actually a load of 2 minute pop-rock songs, but because it says Dream Theater on the front, you hear long heavy rocks 8) :wink:

[MarkDTMMZ]

Brian-

Thank you for the kind words, and I agree with you. Jordan is Jordan and he tried different things that fit the music they were writing in 2003. (BTW, I have heard that he has swtiched to Triton Extreme, so I think you're right). ToT is ana amzingly put together album that pushed for a straight up metal edge. I can't agree with people who say that there is no classic DT there, I hear it everywhere, just chanelled in new, different and exciting ways. When I heard it first I was pretty surprised to hear certain things too, but once it got into my head I was able to see what they were doing, and appreciate the new experiments they were after.

Mark
www.mmzband.com

[Awake]

I can't agree with people who say that there is no classic DT there; I hear it everywhereI don't hear it anywhere. Perhaps we are simply disagreeing on what constitutes the "classic DT" sound. If there is a "classic DT sound", which I'm not convinced that there is, then IMO, it exists somewhere between A Change of Seasons, Trial of Tears, Lines in the Sand, Only a Matter of Time, Take the Time, Voices and Learning to Live. It is characterised by poetic lyrics, musical progression of themes within the song structure, a diversity of styles and dynamics, bass and drum grooves, soaring keyboard chord progresisons and melodic unisons.

I suppose that if one considers SFaM to be the "classic DT sound" - an argument I would entirely reject, as that album sounds far more like LTE up against The Wall to my ears - then I suppose I could see how you're conclusing that TrOT is in the "classic DT" sound.

So I guess that's my question, Mark: pursuant to your view that TrOT contains classic DT sounds "everywhere", what do you consider the "classic DT sound"?

[metropolis2k]

In the Name of God has all the things you mentioned as being 'classic DT'.

[Awake]

In the Name of God has all the things you mentioned as being 'classic DT'.I don't agree.

In The Name of God structure:

Guitar intro, pilfered from Iron Maiden's "Wasting Love" (from Fear of the Dark)
Guitar / bass unison riff
Guitar / bass / keyboard unison riff
Guitar riff, similar to Home verse 1
Same riff, with lyrics
Piano bridge theme with choir effect in background
Chorus theme
New riff, reminiscent of Voices verse, 2 (but, unlike Voices v2, or LTL v2, no thematic link to previous verse)
Chorus again.
A bass groove; section similar to Tool (or Home again)
Development of intro guitar / bass riff
JM Jarre sound effects
Development of intro guitar / bass riff
New riff. I'll grant you that this is a well developed, smooth progression
Keyboard joins riff. I'll also grant you that this constitutes a melodic unison
Technical unison with bass motion
Widdle widdle widdle widdle widdle
Widdle widdle widdle widdle widdle
Widdle widdle widdle widdle widdle
Widdle widdle widdle widdle widdle
...
widdle widdle widdle widdle widdle
Piano break
widdle widdle widdle widdle widdle
widdle widdle widdle widdle widdle
widdle widdle widdle widdle widdle with piano background
widdle widdle widdle widdle widdle with piano background
widdle widdle unison
Main riff variation
Piano bridge theme. Actually very effective in this iteration.
Chrous
Altro, repeated development of piano bridge theme. Easily the best part of the song, really beautiful work from JR.

No poetic lyrics, very little in the way of grooves, very little in way of progressions, very little in the way of melodic unisons, no diversity of styles. And, quality-wise, it really doesn't copare with songs like Finally Free or Blind Faith, or even compete in the same league as songs from the Golden Age albums.

[MarkDTMMZ]

Dream Theater will always sound like Dream Theater. I can hear a tune is by DT just by the way they are playing it, in any fashion. That's what makes them so great, they have their own sound that can't be changed, only augmented by new experimentations and sounds. It's just how music in general has evolved- everything that's played today is just like music from hundreds of years ago, just augmented.

Mark
www.mmzband.com

"Don't Be THAT Guy" -PCU

[Liquid Shadow]

Awake....I see absolutely no resemblence to Home with the verse riff of ITNOG. The notes used are completely different (not only a different key, but different intervals) and it's a much quicker tempo.

And I'm freaking sick of everyone saying that something with a minor 2nd in it sounds like Tool. They were not the first ones to do that, they've just freaking beat it to death. Other people are allowed to do that too, you know.

[YtsejAmir]

you know what bugs me about TOT?
(like St0rMl0rD said)
the THEMES are repetative TOO MUCH, i don't hear REFRESHING things concerning scale and chords movment in each song in general, like there's no refreshing scale changes, the songs mainly stays at the same scale, tone and theme, and thats some of the reasons it SIMPLY gets boring, because of the mainly metal approach of portnoy, in my opinion.

another thing, i think the album would sound better if the mix was different, but again, the mix is straight metal.

its not one of my fav DT albums, but after all i think it still a great album. by the way, endless sacrifice is my fav song from TOT, great song.
after all, its still DT.

[metropolis2k]

In the Name of God has all the things you mentioned as being 'classic DT'.I don't agree.

In The Name of God structure:
...


That to me shows it has an interesting structure.


No poetic lyrics


"Blurring the lines
Between virtue and sin
They can't tell
Where God ends
And mankind begins"

"Passion
Twisting faith into violence
In the name of God"

I challenge you to come up with better on the subject matter.

very little in the way of grooves

You obviously mentally block out the huge bass/drum groove in the middle which reprises with a more of a latin feel.

You even mention it yourself as the "bass groove"

very little in way of progressions

I guess you mean chord progressions. In which case I disagree. There's plenty going on tonally.

very little in the way of melodic unisons

To quote you "I'll also grant you this constitues a melodic unison"

no diversity of styles

It goes from balls and chunk to epic themes to eastern influences to latin grooves to pure shred to eerie dark mellow sections to a part where James does his best Danny Filth impression. I strongly disagree.

And, quality-wise, it really doesn't copare with songs like Finally Free or Blind Faith, or even compete in the same league as songs from the Golden Age albums.

To be honest that's all opinion and you've done nothing but moan and bitch about ToT since it came out and I for one am getting really tired of it. We all know you don't like but there's no need to go on about it in every thread. I dislike Spock's Beard's Feel Euphoria but you don't see me hunting down every thread I can find and slating the album. I just let the people who enjoy it enjoy it and know that it's not for me.

[YtsejAmir]

i can understand people who don't like TOT as much as other DT albums, from the reasons i mentioned.

[Ibanez86]

To be honest that's all opinion and you've done nothing but moan and bitch about ToT since it came out and I for one am getting really tired of it. We all know you don't like but there's no need to go on about it in every thread. I dislike Spock's Beard's Feel Euphoria but you don't see me hunting down every thread I can find and slating the album. I just let the people who enjoy it enjoy it and know that it's not for me.


I totally agree.... Well said.

[Aris_Berd]

First of all, I have to say that people think different what a Classic DT album is. I dissagree, because there is no classic DT. From When Dream And Day Unite to Train Of Thought, they have changed a lot. At the beginning with Kevin Moore, then with Derek Sherinian and now with Jordan Rudess. Their reputation has also change: at WDADU or IAM they had a few funs and now they are full of funs. That affected a lot of their CD Albums such as Falling Into Infinity (that time) and Train Of Thought (this time). What I want to say is that there is no classic DT, however we can find things in a lot of their song that makes them DT.

All has to do with DT quality and originality. IAW was not only an original (for 1992) album, but it was also musically very good and had high quality. Some albums followed the same journey. Awake was original and IA Change Of Seasons was pretty good. That time, I think they put on dog and make a commercial album Falling Into Infinity (that time JP and MP started singing). Fortunately, LTE and Jordan Rudess waked them up and made SFAM full of originality and high quality. What followed is a failure. May 6DOIT be the best album to put after SFAM, one heavy metal and prog album, but it seems that DT(or specific members...) weren't sufficed. TOT is the last one, and as I see it, it seems that DT will follow that pattern, as people like it more. I believe that DT's musical talent are so big that can easily create a commercial album, and they did so. They attracted more funs with one album than with 7.



Futhermore, there many thing that make ToT a forrible album:

1. As I am : the only part I can hear keyboard is the biginning and the before the solo section. WHAT AN ORIGINAL SONG !!!! It is fulled with commercial campaign: ToT's case wrote "contains As I am".

2. This Dying Soul : MP continues The Glass Prison. We know that MP tries to run away of alchoholism but is that a reason to make a whole 11minute song ???

3. Endless Sacrifice : I can say that is the only song a like a little from ToT. But, the first and second riff has nothing in common. The brigde to the instrumental section is terrible. It may have some good musically parts, but Endless Sacrifice is not such a good piece.

4. Honor Thy Father : Another song with too little different things from 1,2,3. I can't say that is as good as (for example) Fatal Tragedy or Lie.

5. Vacant : The cool thing of the CD. Nothing but a melody and ToT's muic style.

6. Stream Of Consciousness : The worst DT instrumentall I have ever heared. I believed that DT had the best instrumentals after all I heared and some live instrumedleys. But, when I heared that I changed my mind.

7. In The Name Of God : Awake said everything about that song. I have to say that the same structures follows every ToT song.


In the end, I still think that people's thoughts about ToT varies. Let's hope that DT will make something to make up for TOT !!!!!!

[The White Raven]

maybe we should ask:


Dt is getting old??

they have more than 15 years with continiuously playing, and after that time, ideas don't came up as easily as before. maybe dt shoul look for new ideas by looking into young people.

young people are full of energy and ideas .

Dt had great albums. IAW, FII, SFAM and 6DOIT for example. the last one is a great album but also try to say that something is wrong.

TOT says this on all his songs.

that golden age when LTE came up (BTW, this came up when DT was on his very best moment. this two albums are greats. they're dt but perfectioned) has passed out.

maybe we will have to listen a new album so we can judge with more arguments to dt




AT

[Liquid Shadow]

1. As I am : the only part I can hear keyboard is the biginning and the before the solo section. WHAT AN ORIGINAL SONG !!!! It is fulled with commercial campaign: ToT's case wrote "contains As I am".



How often do you hear that song on the radio?
How many songs do you hear on the radio with guitar shredding that could rip your face off (not saying that I like it, but how commercial is that solo?)
I don't know where you bought your CD, but I haven't ever seen a case that says "contains As I Am" in all the times I have seen it at record stores

A song does not have to have keyboards to be original, and that point is not only complete moot but the worst logic I have ever seen on this forum. Was Metallica's "Master of Puppets" not original because there were no keyboards on it? What about Black Sabbath's "Iron Man?"
Oh yeah, that's right, you aren't making any sense at all.




2. This Dying Soul : MP continues The Glass Prison. We know that MP tries to run away of alchoholism but is that a reason to make a whole 11minute song ???




My god. You have no idea how incredibly dumb that sounds.
Why do we write music at all? Is there really any reason to write an 11 minute song? How is a battle with alchoholism not as valid a reason as anything else, and who are you to judge someone else's motives for writing music/lyrics?

You know, I'd like to see how you felt if you wrote something about an experience of yours and someone came and told you that you shouldn't have done that because there was no reason for you to write about what you went through. You'd probably tell them to fuck off, so why are you saying that about Portnoy's lyrics? You don't like the song? Great, you're entitled to like/dislike whatever you want, but express your opinion with a little bit of logic and a little respect to the band please...



3. Endless Sacrifice : I can say that is the only song a like a little from ToT. But, the first and second riff has nothing in common. The brigde to the instrumental section is terrible. It may have some good musically parts, but Endless Sacrifice is not such a good piece.



How much does the verse riff of Caught in a Web have in common with the chorus? How much does the chorus of Fatal Tragedy have with the instrumental section, to which there is no transition besides going straight into another riff? If you're going to bitch about ToT, bitch about the rest of DT's catalogue because different riffs are nothing new at all. That's why there are transitions. If I recall, the verse is played cleanly, then tension is built with light distortion and muting before the chorus kicks in for Endless Sacrifice...a much better transition than the aforementioned songs, but nobody ever complains about those. I'm sick of these double standards people have for DT's new stuff...



4. Honor Thy Father : Another song with too little different things from 1,2,3. I can't say that is as good as (for example) Fatal Tragedy or Lie.



Regarding song 3: Please direct me to the part of Honor Thy Father where there is not a solid transition from one part to the next, and I will consider this point.
Regarding song 1: Please direct me to a song on the radio with a in-your-face drum intro including quads and polyrhythmic drumming, or a radio tune with a keyboard interlude like the one displayed in HTF as well as a synth solo
Regarding song 2: go read what I said about that again.


5. Vacant : The cool thing of the CD. Nothing but a melody and ToT's muic style.



That second sentence doesn't make any sense at all...try to form coherrent thoughts when expressing an opinion.



6. Stream Of Consciousness : The worst DT instrumentall I have ever heared. I believed that DT had the best instrumentals after all I heared and some live instrumedleys. But, when I heared that I changed my mind.


So DT no longer have good instrumentals? Because they made one that you don't like, the rest are no longer "the best you have ever heared?"

What. Are. You. On.



7. In The Name Of God : Awake said everything about that song. I have to say that the same structures follows every ToT song.



I have to be blunt and say that you're a flippin' moron. As I Am, Vacant, This Dying Soul, and Stream of Conciousness follow the order:
Intro
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Interlude
Chorus
End

No wait, they don't. Yet another completely flawed point of yours...




In the end, I still think that people's thoughts about ToT varies. Let's hope that DT will make something to make up for TOT !!!!!!

Yes! They should absolutely make up for making an album of music that they enjoy! How dare they do what they want and not ask you personally what you wanted from them, because we all know that DT live to please you!!!

:roll:



Come on man....I'm perfectly fine with people not liking ToT. As a matter of fact, I personally think it's their worst album, but I'm sick and tired of arugments like this with completely flawed logic.

You don't like ToT? Great. Thanks for sharing. Now take a few lessons in how to MAKE SENSE before you post about it again.

[Spacehog]

...

Word... this thread is really starting to p*** me off.

Martin

[Enigma™]

I think it's funny how people take some things so personally - It's just a CD.

I wonder if Britney Spears fans worldwide are demanding a more poppy album because her last one was too "progressive" and the songs didn't all sound exactly the same and there was more then 1 listenable song on a CD...

I mean, I don't like using the whole "then you do better" line but until someone actually gets off their ass and TRIES to write some decent music, I think they don't actually understand how hard it is to write original music. ESPECIALLY when it's DT and they have an "image" or musical persona people are used to.
Doesn't matter what you do, you can't please everyone, but the important thing is to please yourself.

Wow, that's perverted :D

[Ehren]

While I choose to remain somewhat neutral on this, since I really HAVEN'T heard much of Train of Thought, I do have a few opinions to voice.

Firstly, Awake, I'm not totally down with your adamant opposition to this album, but I do dig the fact that you're so passionate about it. And your breakdown of the structure of ITNOG had me laughing for quite a while.

Liquid Shadow, you just went Mike Tyson on that dude. I have to agree with everything you've said, and he undoubtedly left himself wide open for ridicule.

You both expressed your opinions very well. Beyond that ...

I came here and everybody talked about how this is the best forum out there - why? Because of the mature way we all expressed ourselves and respected each other. When I showed up there were obvious prominient members of the forum. Enigma, Salty, Over the Edge, spacehog, white raven, scrap (of whom I'm glad made a valiant return), Lyngs, Bakerman ... all these guys. And the great thing about this place is that anyone is welcome here.

But lately, folks, we've just been ate up with the dumbass. These random people come along and join and then wreak havoc with their mindless idiotic rambilngs about incoherent and innaccurate, closed-minded opinions.

So I guess what I mean is, if you're going to join us, voice your opinion in a respectful and intelligent way, because we're all allergic to stupidity. ::END RANT::

[Enigma™]

that and I have recently taken up banning stupid people as a sport!

Dumbasses: Beware ;)

[Aris_Berd]

First of all, as Ehren said, I try to be respectful to people on this forum and then to DT. This forum will do good to DT, if they listen to different oppinions.

Secondly, what I said about TOT's song, is strictly my opinion. That means you don't have to agree. As I said in the beginning of the forum: "I made this forum to hear your oponion".

As for the TOT's comment, I forgot to say that I am comparing that album with previous ones. I didn't say that TOT is a very bad album itself. I said that DT's production, with all they passed so many years, is terrible (my opinion again). If for example another band made TOT, I would say that it is a good album. But, DT's history deter me from saying that. That's because I expected something different from DT. After SFAM, 6DOIT may sound great. But, again, a more heavy metal album sounds terrible.



Most of those comments are for Liquid Shadow :


1. As I Am : It has little keyboard. It is not original. They are two different comments. I didn't say that it is not original because i has little keyboard parts.
Also: from WDADU, Dream Theater tried to be different from other heavy metal bands such as Mettalica or Black Sabbath. Now, they try to write something familiar. I think that trying such a thing, is easy for DT. But, I can't accept that, after so many years of prog music. Don't forget that I am still A DT fun, and my opinion matters DT.


2. This Dying Soul : Ok, Liquid Shadow you have a point there. We are making music to express ourselves. That's why MP wrote The Glass Prison. However, he continued. I have also read somewhere about MP, that there are 10-12 parts about the battle with alchoholism. That means 3 at The Glass Prison and 2 (I don't remember) at This Dying Soul. To reach 10-12 it sould take 3 more albums. Would you like MP saying about more or less the same thing in 5 albums and taking themes or riffs from old song to write new ones??? I don't !!!


3. Endless Sacrifice : Caught in a Web and Fatal Tragedy are better musically organised than Endless Sacrifice. As you hearing Caught In A Web, you can say that it is ONE song. The verse riff of Fatal Tragedy is much better than Endless Sacrifice's. You may not think so, it is your right. ToT's music style needs that type of changes. I don't blame those changes, but TOT ifself.


4. Honor Thy Father : Well, listen to WDADU, IAM, AWAKE, FII, SFAM and tell me 3 or more songs of a specific album that sound familiar or same. I can't easily find. Instead, ToT's songs sound a little bit same to me.....


6. Stream Of Consciousness : Yes Liquid Shadow. From my favorite band I expect the best work. When I hear that kind of instrumental my courage falls. Whatever that will follow may be better, but I don't think so, after what DT do.

7. In The Name Of God : That time, Liquid Shadow, you started talking with sentiment.

I only mind a little if DT make something that I don't like. They will just lose a fun (or more). After ToT, I don't thing that DT live to please me; they live to please themselves with different ways. All those arguments doesn't have flawed logic; they have emotion about what DT did. That's all!


Finally, as musicians and people who don't like TOT, I think we should try and find the reasons why DT make TOT(and why it is so bad), so that we won't fall as DT did sometime in the future. If you don't like TOT, try to find what makes you do so (that's what I've done) to run away from it.

-aris

[ktriton]

I love ToT. It's lively, energetic, and packed full of interesting lyrics and musical ideas. This being one of the first threads I've read on this board, I have to say that there's a good bunch of you that I have zero respect for. Not because of your opinions, but because of the way you expressed them--and on Jordan's own forum, too!

I'm not going to name names or sift through quote after quote in order to point out what I mean, but some of these 'arguments' are basically a bunch of baseless accusations against a group of people that love what they have create.

Although, there are a good bunch of you guys that have earned my respect. Some very good points about Dreamtheater's work and about the nature of criticism. There is a certain level of detachment that one must use when analyzing something.

Anyway, that's my rant. I love the album--thumbs up to the band for creating it!

[metropolis2k]

I love ToT. It's lively, energetic...

That is the one thing that got me into the album. I didn't really know how to take it when I first heard it but I was going through something in my life where I really needed to let go at times and let it all out and the album is perfect for that. It's also AWESOME to play along to on whatever instrument you play. It's full of energy, demanding but very rewarding and it just rocks.

[Ehren]

I hope maybe we've all finally agreed to disagree. Because frankly, i'm tired of the whole argument. This was a bit of a dumb thread to start with, and it's stupidity has steadily increased over its lifespan. So let's just end this now. Ready, and .... End.

[The White Raven]

I hope maybe we've all finally agreed to disagree. Because frankly, i'm tired of the whole argument. This was a bit of a dumb thread to start with, and it's stupidity has steadily increased over its lifespan. So let's just end this now. Ready, and .... End.

totally agree with you....

i don't find the sense of disscuss what we like or dislike

i like a song or i don't it shouldn't care to the others. it's just matter of one.

[The White Raven]

I came here and everybody talked about how this is the best forum out there - why? Because of the mature way we all expressed ourselves and respected each other. When I showed up there were obvious prominient members of the forum. Enigma, Salty, Over the Edge, spacehog, white raven, scrap (of whom I'm glad made a valiant return), Lyngs, Bakerman ... all these guys. And the great thing about this place is that anyone is welcome here.

OH!.....i feel so important :cry:


:D :D :D

[Awake]

In The Name Of God : Awake said everything about that song. I have to say that the same structures follows every ToT song.

I have to be blunt and say that you're a flippin' moron. As I Am, Vacant, This Dying Soul, and Stream of Conciousness follow the order:
Intro
Verse
Chorus
Verse
Chorus
Interlude
Chorus
End

No wait, they don't. Yet another completely flawed point of yours...While I agree that he chose a poor exemplar, you have to concede that, post-LTE, DT have adopted wholesale an instrumental section structure that is used repeatedly. I call it - inaccurately, technically - the 8-8-4-4-2 structure: 8 bars of guitar solo, 8 bars of keyboard solo, 4 bars of guitar solo, 4 bars of keyboard solo, followed by a technical unison. This pattern is all over LTE, SFaM and all the successive albums; to name but a few: Universal Mind, Fatal Tragedy, Beyond This Life and The Glass Prison (which is actually the only in-DT example of the pattern which I've actually enjoyed, as that instrumental section is utterly terrifying and utterly thrilling).

Iron Maiden fans on the board will be familiar with Maiden's standard instrumental section, which was a standard chord sequence and guitar solo that was - conciously or not - dropped into several songs with scant regard to whether it fitted in with the song. DT are doing the same thing with the 8-8-4-4-2 structure.

[Enigma™]

yeah, this thread is coming to an end, and like an old hound that's seen it's day... This thread too is going to be put down.

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