Disrespect

[rlainhart]

In the last few days on this board, I've seen people, presumably Jordan's fans who wish him well and want to support him, discuss:

1. pirating his unreleased solo CD;

2. pirating unauthorized videos of Jordan and John Petrucci;

3. and now, pirating his training materials.

And on Jordan's own board too, which he pays for and offers for free to his fans.

Doesn't anyone want to pay for anything anymore? Do you really feel Jordan's work has so little value that Jordan shouldn't make a living at it?

This, to me, seems like the height of disrespect. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

[Scrap]

My question: where are the mods? :roll:

[lighthouse]

Yeah, I think some topics here have gone out of the line.....
Is good to express your opinions but respect is the most important thing in life!


Juan Pablo

[King_Ellesar]

This, to me, seems like the height of disrespect. You should be ashamed of yourselves.

i would like to apologize right now for offering to share a video i had from a while back of a JR/JP live gig on another thread. i guess i didnt think of everything before offereing that. i only thought of how short it was and how it wasnt likely for it to be released for anyone to buy ever. i meant no disrespect, but i can see how it can be taken in a disrespectful way. my apologies again.

[ChrisMcCoy]

This whole pirating issue actually hits close to home for me.
10 years ago, I had a distribution deal for my CD through a Swedish Label called "Megarock" back in 1994. I didn't ever see a return on my investment, in fact it ended up putting me in the hole for 10,000.00 USD. To add to that, people started selling it all over ebay for more than the shelf price. I was cheated by the label, the people who were involved in the recording and others who pirated copies of the CD to sell it on e-bay. Being cheated out of your work sucks. It's a bad feeling, and when you work hard to create a masterpiece, it's all to easy for the masses to come along and tear it apart. That said, Let's all try to be a little more respectful of everyone's work, Especially Jordan's. He gave us this Forum, and it should be used for good things ! It's VERY hard work to write songs, film videos and put out a CD, DVD or published work.
Best Regards,
Chris

[Rexx]

I didn't catch any of that pirate type conversation but I agree that it is at the hight of disrespect.

Over a year ago I hosted a web space that anyone could upload and download synth patches. The majority were cool but the odd jerks would upload JR & JP "An Eving With..." and I wouldn't catch it until hours later when I got home.

I don't even "get" the 'Any crticisms of Rhythm of Time?' thread?
I haven't looked at it and I don't understand how ppl are criticising it unless they already downloaded it before it is even official commercially available. On Jordan's own web sight that he finaces. :x

[Tusker]

Richard, thank you for this thread. Yup a little respect would be cool.

It's funny how people who wouldn't dream of breaking into someone's house, will steal music and software without thinking. It IS somebody's livelihood. Jordan takes a business risk, by investing in a CD product that has his own vision. When you steal from him, you are actually telling him to stop providing a different kind of music in the marketplace. Is that really what you want?

Jerry

[Michael B. - The Mirror]

we - the international regional DTFC´s contacted the seller of the RoT promo and will try to shut down this auction, as we did with some where some people try to sell the FCCD´s

THESE ITEMS ARE FOR PROMOTION ONLY AND NOT FOR SALE :!: :!:

if you sell such an item, you act against the law. even if some might feel "secure" in the world of internet, dont be too sure

further on i agree with R. Lainhart

[Over The Edge]

Not cool guys, not cool.

Respect is indeed lacking! :?




FL
www.franklucas.net

[Spacehog]

Yeah, it's a tragedy. Most of the people here are musicians, I'm sure none of us would like it if it happened to us. That's not to say I've never downloaded an album, but if I have, it's because I've not heard enough on the radio to make me buy it, and then I've either deleted it or bought it. And that's partly cos not enough artists have decent websites with samples to hear in a legitimate fashion.

I, for one, freely release my old material over the internet. Why? Partly cos it stops the pirates, and partly cos it gives me publicity that I might not otherwise get. Would I do the same with a new album? No! But the key thing there is choice, I *choose* to do that, I've thought about the reasons and decided on my path. People pirating material is not on, particularly if that material is not released (I can *sort of* understand people making material that's old and/or hard to find available by unauthorised means, although I don't condone it).

Jordan, you're an inspiration to all of us, in small or large ways, and you deserve better than this. Hopefully people will think twice in the future.

Martin

[NecroVMX]

I agree, I mean it's bad enough to steal from him, but then to brag about it on his own website? ridiculous. Dream Theate are okay with people sharing and trading live bootlegs of their shows, but pirating an unreleased official solo album that will be for sale? Jordan Rudess isn't in some hip hop band or something, it's not like any of these guys are rich, i'm sure they're comfortable, but seriously, why steal?

[koma666]

burned cd = no money = no interest from the label = no more Jordan Rudess




koma
........
:evil: :!:

[merijn]

Yes, respect is a good thing, but I wouldn't worry of money too much, now that he is with Korg...



Oh! Edit: The fun part is that everyone who requested something illegal, now fully agrees with Richard L. We do have some Flipflaps here.

[Nolan]

I think we all fully agree with Richard.

But speaking on behalve of the mods. People are only talking about bootleg-videos, promos etc.
As long as there are no actual offers being made, I don't know if the mods could intervene.

And for the Ebay auction, I myself looked at possibilities to get that down, but if it wasn't mentioned here I probably wouldn't have seen it........


Coen

[Nolan]

and about "flipflapping :) "

Sometimes people have to be told that what they do or ask is not how it's supposed to be.
I don't think that people on this board intentionally want to harm Jordan in any way..........


Coen

[maJ estY]

As for me, I've already written it in the other thread, and I've written it in the past - more than only once!

I have been using p2p networks like Kazaa or WinMX for quite a while. It is years ago now and all I can say is that I was a young teenager who did not even have an idea of what downloading songs illegally means to the musicians.
The problem is that there are too many people who do not connect all the damage with themselves. They think: "Everyone does it, so why shouldn't I do it?"

What Spacehog wrote is in my opinion acceptable, but there are others who say the same, but it ends with: "Well, I've downloaded it, and it's good, but I don't find it good enough to buy it... It took me so long to download that album, so I'll simply burn it."

Since I have formatted my PC for the first time, I did not download any music illegally. That was last year, but I didn't burn all the MP3s I had, because they weren't even worth to be burnt. If I like something, I buy it and don't download it, because I am also a fan of booklets and original cases. I want as much as possible as original CD.
That was actually always the case. I remember that I downloaded some of the songs from "An Evening with JP & JR", but I would have bought the album if were able to. It was only available online and I was not allowed to order anything online. That was actually my main problem.

However, you can call me guilty now, but >I< have learnt from my mistakes.

[Enigma™]

My question: where are the mods? :roll:

God fucking forbid I take a couple days off to gig and spend with the family and friends... There are two other mods here ;)

Jeez... *finds the culprit thread*

[Enigma™]

Yeah, Locked BTW.

*shrugs and walks away*

[Scrap]

There are two other mods here ;)

Too bad they never do their jobs. :P

[hephiroth]

jesus...i've barely been on the forum this summer cuz i've been busy and whatever, but i finally had some decent time to read some threads, and...what the hell happened? when did this become like the dt.net forum!? i know there's still a lot of good attitudes around here, but it seems like some people are dragging this forum down, and that's really a shame because i've always thought (and still think) this is the best dt-related forum, and i'd hate to see that environment ruined by a lot of stupid arguing and internet-bashing. it's all about having class when you argue...

-jeff-

[Georges]

Piracy is something which has ever since existed and I am quite sure that even those people who posted previously on this topic or board cannot claim to never have pirated anything. Just think about all the unregistered shareware (considered as pirated ware) and pirated retail software that you have/had installed on your computer.

Anyways, that's not the direction I want to go with my post. What I want to stress is that repression and complaints are NOT the solution to piracy. The more repressive you get, the more interesting it becomes to pirate.

Music pirating via MP3 or burning CDs was e.g. a reaction to 5 main phenomena:

- Bad quality in music (as for the commercial stuff); the many unknown good musicians suffer from the greed of bad one-day-fly "musicians"

- An old-fashioned distribution channel; the problem is "how to find a better distribution way without encourage piracy ?"

- In addition, due to distribution restrictions in several countries, the people residing in the latter are unable to buy the stuff even if they wanted. Opening up the barriers will increase sales.

- There should be a price difference made between students and adults. After all, the former are not able to pay the price but often the products are targeted to them, encouraging them to pirate. Such student packages could either consist of the whole contents or reduced contents.

- Finally, prices on Internet are equal for the whole world population - how do you expect someone from South America to be able to buy something at the price of North America ? CDs are currently sold at a Western country prices worldwide. Discriminating prices would encourage richer poor country people to buy cheap at the first-hand distributor and to sell expensively on e-bay; arbitrage is the word for that, this would continue till the optimum price will be determined - that's not the optimum solution either but I bet it's at least better than the same-high-price-for-everyone-strategy. If you want your product to be sold worldwide, a smaller price has to be accepted. If you want your product to be sold only in a Western country, you can charge the high price but piracy will be the consequence in the other countries and may potentially spread in the Western country.


As you can see, improving these points is not really easy. Of course, there will be some black sheep, who despite the above points will continue to pirate - that's where repression should act. Nonetheless,

THIS forum should remain clean of piracy. After all, the forum belongs to JR himself - this is NOT free-bay.

Regarding this board:
-------------------------

Any forum users systematically (e.g. first time warning, then banning) offering pirated stuff, asking for or hinting at offering it should be systematically banned via their IP.

Any users raising concerns as for the distribution problems (prices, region restrictions, etc.) should be allowed to clearly develop their points with real arguments, risks and recommendations. I think that if piracy is a concern, it should be minimized with both repressive and market solutions.

[Spacehog]

Well said Georges, it may be a one off, but you actually said stuff there that makes sense and that I agree with :D

Martin

[Awake]

Music pirating via MP3 or burning CDs was e.g. a reaction to 5 main phenomenaMusic pirating in MP3 or burning CD was a reaction to one phenomenon: "Hey, I can get something I want for less money". The whole "I download music because of evil record comoanies putting out substandard music" argument is a grossly self-serving argument used by people who pirate music to make them feel better about having something they didn't pay for.



In addition, due to distribution restrictions in several countries, the people residing in the latter are unable to buy the stuff even if they wanted. Opening up the barriers will increase sales.You're talking about legitimate downloading of music. Downloading music isn't piracy. Downloading copyrighted sound recordings without the consent of the copyright owner is piracy. Or, in less clinical terms, screwing people out of money.



After all, the former are not able to pay the price but often the products are targeted to them, encouraging them to pirate. If you want something, you pay for it. If you can't afford it, you save for it. I'd like to own a Chrysler Voyager, but I can't afford it. So I can't buy it. I don't go out and steal it, because that's against the law.



prices on Internet are equal for the whole world population - how do you expect someone from South America to be able to buy something at the price of North America?If I sell something, I expect someone to pay the price I ask for it. If I make a CD and I need $8 to break even per unit, I need $8 per unit whether I'm selling it to a student, an American, a Brazilian or a Kenyan. My costs don't change. That means that I need to get x amount per unit, or I'm selling at a loss. I'm not going to pay people to own my CD, and you shouldn't expect anyone else to.


There should be a price difference made between students and adults.If Jordan - or anyone else, for that matter - wants to sell his music to one or another demographic at a discount, that's his choice, not yours. If you choose to pay people to own your album (see above), that's your choice.



If you want your product to be sold worldwide, a smaller price has to be accepted. If you want your product to be sold only in a Western country, you can charge the high price but piracy will be the consequence in the other countries and may potentially spread in the Western country.So what you're saying is, musicians should either take a pay cut voluntarily, or lose sales?


We're talking about what people do for a living, not some abstract area of humanitarian economics. If people choose to be philanthropists, then that's for them to choose. It shouldn't be written into their job description.

[Georges]

So what you're saying is, musicians should either take a pay cut voluntarily, or lose sales?

No, actually your reasoning is narrow-minded because you are only considering one factor: price. However, turnover is price multiplied by quantities sold. It's all about increasing quantities sold by persuading some pirates to become honest enough to buy your stuff. Breakeven will not be the problem, it's only a matter of time and of the risk aversion degree to get there. There will never be a zero piracy situation anyways...

Software went that direction. Music will sooner or later (have to) go the same direction.

I'm not defending anyone of either side because I belong to neither side. Nonetheless, I think it's important to learn to accept that there are many more reasons to piracy than only the "black sheep theory". Internet has changed the economic rules, and governments as much as music companies were not fast enough to notice it.

[lighthouse]

I don`t support piracy in any way and don`t think I can come out with a solution to the problem, but there`s something you need to know and that is that people in the first world, earn like three times the salary that we earn here in the third world, we live very comfortable here and we don`t lack anything, but the prices on CD`s and even musical instruments are set for people from the first world, so for us is harder to buy CD`s and stuff...and gets harder when you love music as many people here, including myself, do. So piracy here is more like: hey I like that very very much but I cannot buy it....so lets burn it, I`m not saying that I do it, nor justifying people that does it, but for us is a very complicated matter. The advantage with our genre of music is that you can burn or download or wathever a CD, but if you really really like it you`re gonna buy it cause it`ll have more "sentimental" value for you. Just explaining our context!


Cheers
Juan Pablo

[Ehren]

jesus...i've barely been on the forum this summer cuz i've been busy and whatever, but i finally had some decent time to read some threads, and...what the hell happened? when did this become like the dt.net forum!? i know there's still a lot of good attitudes around here, but it seems like some people are dragging this forum down, and that's really a shame because i've always thought (and still think) this is the best dt-related forum, and i'd hate to see that environment ruined by a lot of stupid arguing and internet-bashing. it's all about having class when you argue...

-jeff-

Jeff, I haven't been here most of the summer either - that's what it is. The forum started declining when we stopped posting so much.

<:)

[Peter_Stone]

Can't resist up-scaling you [metaphorically]...

So piracy here is more like: hey I like that very very much but I cannot buy it....so lets burn it.............. for us is a very complicated matter. The advantage with our genre of music is that you can burn or download or wathever a CD

Really? I really wanted that new Lamborghini model that came out in Italy, but its too expensive for me over here in Belgium (with the high taxes and stuff..), so I'll just go out and car jack one at the junction and shoot the owner in the face while I'm at it. For me its a very complicated matter, too! I simply must have that car!

Hey, I might as well go to a cafe, order a meal and walk away without paying for it. And smash the window on my way out. I really LIKE the food they make very very much, right? I hope you rich people understand. Its a very complicated matter for me.

Fuck, I never knew it could be so easy!

Thanks!

[Ehren]

Tell me if you think this is wrong, guys. If it is, I'll delete them all right now, because Lord knows I don't want to scam people.

I got into Dream Theater, and I downloaded a lot of their music to see what all of their stuff is like. I'm a fan now, so every time I get a paycheck, I go and buy a Dream Theater CD. When I do, I delete every song from that album and rip the CD to my computer. I'm working on every Dream Theater album out.

So you call it - is it morally wrong to have pirated music if I'm going to buy the CD anyway?

I used to pirate music to no end, and then it got to my conscience - ESPECIALLY about Dream Theater - and because I respect their music so much, I'm buying all their CD's as a way to try to make amends. Besides, like lighthouse said, you DO feel more special with the crappy jewel case and a CD sleeve with cover art.

So I guess you could say my downloaded songs are a placeholder until I get the actual CD. Am I just in denial?

[Enigma™]

Not exactly - I have an MP3 for EVERY DT song I have on CD, and I also have a burned backup also.

The difference about the whole MP3 thing for me: I don't share my DT Mp3's.

Having Mp3's aren't illegal, but distributing them IS, and that's where the problem comes in. I'm going to openly admit that I have quite a few DT and LTE mp3's, but I also already own the CD's.
On top of that, I have a burned copy that way when I go somewhere, I A: Don't have to change CD's because one has my fav songs on it, *compilation CD of sorts*
B: Don't have to worry about it getting stolen on me
C: Don't have to worry about it getting SCRATCHED and/or broken then not working.

The thing is for ME it's a great technology that's been severely abused, but that's the way of things I guess.

*shrugs and walks away*

[Georges]

Really? I really wanted that new Lamborghini model that came out in Italy [...] I simply must have that car!

This comparison is ridiculous. A CD is a CD, there is no Lamborghini-like CD around there BUT you can still drive your car, which many people in the third world do not even have. They have no car but they don't steal any car either.

It's difficult to know what it's like to be poor if you have never been in the situation yourself. There are also poor people next corner in your street, they may be pirating stuff, but so are many many rich people in the same street. Now who is ethically more easy to understand ? The rich pirate or the poor one ?

[lighthouse]

Peter, you just quoted some of what I wrote....I said that with our genre of music we will probanly make the effort and buy the cd......and that`s exactly what I do....I don`t burn CD`s wich I don`t own myself, I was just pointing out how people thinks around here, and I really don`t support that....no need to be so pissed off....
I`m also trying to make a living from music bussines and piracy is a big problem....and our economical situation, and prices made for people with more money makes it worse.....I`m not justifying the whole situation, just poiniting it out

If I offend you in some way, please forgive me

Juan Pablo

[rock_ya]

OK, so this is old but I'd still want to see more people 's opinions on the matter. Of course I'm totally against this forum's users discussing things like these mentioned on the opening post, but I'd like some more general thoughts on the matter of piracy, especially after what RIAA has said and is trying to do (http://gear.ign.com/articles/749/749883p1.html) (showing its' stand against artists and its' real target - not that we didn't now, really...). My thoughts are here (http://www.jordanrudess.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7496) (along with a small discussion - sorry whitelightening).

[Gustavo]

I say, i agree in some point to rock_ya's thoughts, though it may be true, its not really the right thing to do, all these sharewareprograms should be erased from earth, just because they hurt so much the musician. Also the point on making music is not only trying for people to like it, you also do it in some point, for the money.

Btw: is there any part where you can donate $ to Jordan for keepin the forums? if not, there should be.

[Bert]

Interestingly enough, the referenced RIAA statement doesn't really pertain to piracy, aside from the mention of the issue from the past. The current action seems to be aimed solely at diminishing legitimate income afforded to artists in favor of streaming that money to the labels themselves, which is a very different topic from diminishing consumer piracy. To me, therein lies the real deviousness of the matter: the organization in previous action was protecting *both* the artists' and labels' sources of revenue, whereas now they seem to be protecting only the label with total disregard for the artists.

Perhaps they should change the name to the RLPA, the Record Label Protection Agency. Or perhaps simply STA, Screw The Artists.

I could think of a few others, but I doubt Jordan wants them posted on his bulletin board.

-- B

[Bert]

In addition, I guess this goes without saying, but:

The labels' position on this matter seems to be that they "drive the revenue," therefore if they disappeared, the artists would ultimately suffer the consequences. Therefore, protecting the labels is inherent in protecting the artists.

Let's think, for a moment, where the artists would be without labels. Certainly there would be a very difficult transition time if the labels suddenly disappeared, but given that most of the infrastructure previously available only through a label is now available very easily to the individual (recording equipment, worldwide distribution via the Internet), I imagine the artists would survive in the end and most likely be better off for it. The most difficult situation I see in this scenario is heavy touring, which would likely be very hard for all but the hugest international acts without label support.

Also in the artists' favor is the fact that, labels or not, the desire consumers have for music will remain intense.

So, let's turn that situation on its head and wonder where the labels would be without any artists. Hmmmmmm...

And the RIAA is protecting WHOM?

-- B

[rock_ya]

Interestingly enough, the referenced RIAA statement doesn't really pertain to piracy, aside from the mention of the issue from the past. The current action seems to be aimed solely at diminishing legitimate income afforded to artists in favor of streaming that money to the labels themselves, which is a very different topic from diminishing consumer piracy. To me, therein lies the real deviousness of the matter: the organization in previous action was protecting *both* the artists' and labels' sources of revenue, whereas now they seem to be protecting only the label with total disregard for the artists.

Perhaps they should change the name to the RLPA, the Record Label Protection Agency. Or perhaps simply STA, Screw The Artists.

I could think of a few others, but I doubt Jordan wants them posted on his bulletin board.

-- B

Yeah, the RIAA article was just to show the true purpose of the organisation, for others not to think that they try to protect the artists - they were doing it for their money from the beginning. If they really wanted to fight piracy they could really do it in more "efficient" ways (that would of course mean less money for them :rolleyes: ).
Gustavo, you're right. I never supported people downloading mp3s of albums instead of buying them. I just said that it's quite good - both for the artist and the consumer- that someone can download the music and get to like it before buying the CD, because as I pointed before, that could cause "smaller" artists to get known in a more wide public :wink:

EDIT: Totally right on your second post Bert! That's what I' m trying to say: don't let them fool you, all of us (as potential artists) should react and don't let them use us. Real piracy is not that big of a problem, it was always there. Their true problem is that they want to make more money and that's another excuse for them to do so at the musician's and the consumer's expense (fortunately this piracy-sue "trend" hasn't arrived here yet...).

[EloHiR ElEnDIl]

I say, i agree in some point to rock_ya's thoughts, though it may be true, its not really the right thing to do, all these sharewareprograms should be erased from earth, just because they hurt so much the musician. Also the point on making music is not only trying for people to like it, you also do it in some point, for the money. And Richard, if the thread i posted recently about jordan's unplugged album is what you refered to, in some degree, then im sorry if it was in some part wrong, i just wanted to make sure the release is original, now that i know its not, i would only buy it from Jordan, not on eBAy.

Btw: is there any part where you can donate $ to Jordan for keepin the forums? if not, there should be.

I don't think that has something to do, because this thread it's really old, and you posted that like 2 weeks ago.

[Gustavo]

lol i just realised that too.

i just saw this forum on the top, so i figured its kinda new, so sorry bout that, i forgot to c the date. LOL LMAO

If you notice, i entered this forum long after this tread, so i never really looked at it

[King_Ellesar]

In addition, I guess this goes without saying, but:

The labels' position on this matter seems to be that they "drive the revenue," therefore if they disappeared, the artists would ultimately suffer the consequences. Therefore, protecting the labels is inherent in protecting the artists.

Let's think, for a moment, where the artists would be without labels. Certainly there would be a very difficult transition time if the labels suddenly disappeared, but given that most of the infrastructure previously available only through a label is now available very easily to the individual (recording equipment, worldwide distribution via the Internet), I imagine the artists would survive in the end and most likely be better off for it. The most difficult situation I see in this scenario is heavy touring, which would likely be very hard for all but the hugest international acts without label support.

Also in the artists' favor is the fact that, labels or not, the desire consumers have for music will remain intense.

So, let's turn that situation on its head and wonder where the labels would be without any artists. Hmmmmmm...

And the RIAA is protecting WHOM?

-- B


I like these ideas. I just bought two Fripp albums this weekend from DGMlive (www.dgmlive.com) and I was surprised how easy it was. Just payed with card, and dled from a torrent link they provided me. I got cd-quality audio files, album artwork and all. It actually seemed to make me want to buy more of it, since it was so easy...then I remembered I dont have much money left :P But it all worked so nicely, I was impressed.

If the labels become a real big problem, could artists form their own label? I'm not sure how it works or if it would even have a similar effect, but don't actors have some sort of union? Well what if musicians had something similar...or if someone created a label company that had no BS that the major ones today have? Something with maximum benefit for the artist.

[Bert]

There actually *is* a musician's union, but for some reason it seems to be little used and appreciated outside Nashville. Maybe it's not a national thing, I'm not really sure.

"We now go live to the second straight day of the rock band MOOP's refusing to play, and also the second day of absolutely no other news to report."

:D

-- B

[Spacehog]

The Musician's Union is actually an international organisation, I believe (or maybe it's a separate one with the same name in England). The problem in the UK is, if you start demanding union amounts for gigs, you simply won't get the gigs, so it's pretty much worthless.

[Bert]

if you start demanding union amounts for gigs, you simply won't get the gigs, so it's pretty much worthless.

The solution here is obviously to sue the pants off everyone who has ever denied you a gig, everyone who might have ever been in business with that person, and his entire family and high school graduating class. Then, at least in the US where lawsuits like that win enormous amounts of money more often than not, you can retire wealthy and comfortable without actually ever having set foot on a stage.

Anti-union discrimination hurts, people. It hurts deep.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I'll turn off the sarcasm mode now.

-- B

[mlunapiena01]

There are quite a few musicians Unions in the US, but I won't even begin to pretend there's full compliance (even in big areas like NYC). Here are the ones that exist in the US that I've heard about:

American Guild of Musical Artists
American Guild of Variety Artists
American Federation of TV & Radio Artists
American Federation of Musicians

Those all cover musicians in some way or another ... each having different jurisdictions ... I don't know there specific areas off the top of my head, but I know at the very least, the AFM has its own website (I'd imagine the others do too)

[Spacehog]

The solution here is obviously to sue the pants off everyone who has ever denied you a gig, everyone who might have ever been in business with that person, and his entire family and high school graduating class. Then, at least in the US where lawsuits like that win enormous amounts of money more often than not, you can retire wealthy and comfortable without actually ever having set foot on a stage.
Sounds like an absolutely wonderful idea, possibly the only possible benefit of the US' litigation culture! Except, hey, I like playing on stages (although the bands I play in tend to organise our own gigs, so getting paid isn't so much the issue. Only one of the bands I'm in really fits into the "bar band" mould).

[Enigma™]

I thought I buried this and locked it a long time ago??


Well... LOCKED AGAIN.