Toys toys, what wonderful toys.

[Tigerfolly]

I've been thinking about picking up a B3 clone for a while now. My bass player has a Hammond M2 in his basement that I've been thinking about fixing up, but I don't want to tote that monster around to shows, and I definitely don't want to carry around a Leslie with it either. So, I've been keeping an eye on Ebay for used Korg CX3s and Roland VK7/8s, and even the Hammond XK2.. and the new XK3 looks interesting, but nothing sounds as good at Native Instruments' B4 to me. I've considered using the B3 clone to trigger NI B4, so I can still get the controls that I want.. and then I see that Native Instruments is releasing this:

http://www.nativeinstruments.de/typo3temp/67a556f763.jpg
http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.php?b4d_us

A realtime control box for NI B4. Outstanding! I want one now! I'm sure it won't be cheap, but it's still better than all of the other options for me. I can't wait!

[Drusillus]

That's pretty cool! It's cool that NI is starting to get into the hardware controller business.

You've probably already checked this out, but the Roland VK-8M is also pretty nice:

http://www.rolandus.com/products/details.asp?catid=10&subcatid=42&prodid=VK%2D8M

http://www.rolandus.com/images/products/organs/VK-8M_md.gif

[Tigerfolly]

That's pretty cool! It's cool that NI is starting to get into the hardware controller business.

You've probably already checked this out, but the Roland VK-8M is also pretty nice

Yeah, I was looking at that as well, but I don't need the module portion of it because compared to NI's B4, the VK8 sounds like garbage. I was actually looking at this as well, although it's not ideal by any means:

http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.main&ID=2505615704f241ab716639de0db48fef

http://www.m-audio.com/images/global/product_pics/big/uc33e_460.jpg

It appears that M-Audio has bought out Evolution and absorbed their product line. I have an Evolution USB MIDI controller that's not bad, but I really didn't like that UC33's interface. I really wanted realistic drawbar controls, not just a bank of eight faders, so I'm really happy that Native Instruments has come up with this product.

[Kirby]

Check out Doepfer:
http://www.doepfer.de/B4.htm

[Phred]

While I'll admit that the NI B4 sounds really good, you should realize that it is not precisely an organ emulator. I am not sure how much experience you have with drawbars, but when you play with the settings, you will notice that they are sometimes at least incorrect.

That is probably because NI is still sample based and not trying to emulate each of the 91 tonewheels in a real B3. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken in this.

Try this with you NI B4 and your drummers M2.

set your drawbars to say : 88 0000 000 on both. In the recordings that I have heard of the B4, you hear something more like: 88 0003 000. In other words because the B4 is sample based it can only approximate settings.

If you are not a drawbar player, then this may not matter much anyway.

P.S - Very surprised to here anyone saying that the VK-8M sounds like garbage compared to anything. Have you heard it? I swear by my VK-7, and you will find a lot of organistsdo too. The only complaint that I have ever heard about the sound of VK-8M was that the leslie is too fast. And that is (while painstakingly difficult) fixable.

[Spacehog]

Yeah, I've always been much more impressed by the sounds that come out of the VK-8 (and also my E-MU B-3) than I ever have from the NI B4. It just doesn't seem to have the guts at all that a real B-3 would have, IMO. I'd be kinda interested to try it with a drawbar controller, but I don't see it helping that much, except in terms of realism...

Martin

[Drusillus]

No, I'm pretty sure that B4 isn't sampled based, I think it uses tonewheel modelling just like the newest clonewheel keyboards. But I agree with Spacehog, B4 just seems to lack some balls :) To be truthful I think the Roland VKs lack some balls too, compared to the new Korg C3.

[Tigerfolly]

While I'll admit that the NI B4 sounds really good, you should realize that it is not precisely an organ emulator. I am not sure how much experience you have with drawbars, but when you play with the settings, you will notice that they are sometimes at least incorrect.

That is probably because NI is still sample based and not trying to emulate each of the 91 tonewheels in a real B3. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken in this.

Try this with you NI B4 and your drummers M2.

set your drawbars to say : 88 0000 000 on both. In the recordings that I have heard of the B4, you hear something more like: 88 0003 000. In other words because the B4 is sample based it can only approximate settings.

If you are not a drawbar player, then this may not matter much anyway.

P.S - Very surprised to here anyone saying that the VK-8M sounds like garbage compared to anything. Have you heard it? I swear by my VK-7, and you will find a lot of organistsdo too. The only complaint that I have ever heard about the sound of VK-8M was that the leslie is too fast. And that is (while painstakingly difficult) fixable.

Yeah, I have to admit I'm not looking for the -exact- detailed replication of a B3, but rather a very realistic sounding substitute. I mean, if I was that nuts about the original B3 sound, I'd probably be stubborn (and nuts) enough to go pick up a B3 and drag it around. ;)

I'm not really a drawbar player just yet.. I'm just now really getting into the subtleties of them. Before now, I had more of a "set it and forget it" mindset where I'd get the sound I was looking for in a patch and that was the sound I'm using for that song. But more and more as I'm listening to and watching some great B3 players, I'm realizing just how important those drawbar changes are to the expressive capabilities of the Hammond sound.

I have heard the VK7 and VK8, although I have'nt heard the actual VK8M module (I'm assuming it sounds like a VK8 though). Don't get me wrong, they are quite good.. I just think that the B4 sounds -that- much better. I'm a big fan of Korg products, but if I did go pick up a clone I would probably choose the VK8 over the CX3. So, I'm not saying the VK8 is garbage.. but to my ears, there's just something a little more realistic about the B4. Plus you have the ability emulate many different B3s, and their emulations are pretty damn good. The overdrive is pleasing, the Leslie is wonderful, and my only complaint is the lack of control I have over the drawbars, which this B4D controller will fix. Technically right now I'm sure I could assign the drawbars to MIDI or just use my laptop's mouse to change 'em.. or set up patch strings with gradual drawbar changes and flip through patches, but I don't know if that would have a delay or dropout.

So yeah, all in all the exact duplication is not as important to me as the overall sound, and in that department the B4 is truly unmatched. I may end up taking your advice and set that M2 up by my rig to compare a few things. It's just a massive beast of a thing to move, and it's only a spinet! I swear that Hammonds aren't made of wood, they're made of solid iron that's painted to look like woodgrain!

[Tigerfolly]

Yeah, I've always been much more impressed by the sounds that come out of the VK-8 (and also my E-MU B-3) than I ever have from the NI B4. It just doesn't seem to have the guts at all that a real B-3 would have, IMO. I'd be kinda interested to try it with a drawbar controller, but I don't see it helping that much, except in terms of realism...

Martin

Well, in order to get the guts that a real B3 has, you'd need to pump it through some wattage and get some air moving. When I've got it completely cranked through my rig, it gets pretty ballsy. And with a little overdrive on the patch it actually sounds like I'm overdriving the amp instead of it being an effect. Comparing the sound coming from my laptop to the sound coming out of my amps is like comparing apples to really, really BIG apples :)

Plus, you can always get those guts with a little EQ. But that works for the VK8 and CX3 as well (and I'm sure it would for the E-MU and Hammond XK2/XK3).. just run it through some nice loud, beefy amps.

[Over The Edge]

B4 = 8)

With the drawbars = 8) 8)




FL
www.franklucas.net