Using a Compressor/Limiter in your live rig

[ChrisMcCoy]

Last weekend, I played a show using 4 keyboards and 2 midi modules.
I played 4 sets per night and covered a lot of keyboard oriented classic rock from bands like Styx, Boston, Journey, Foreigner, Loverboy, The Doobie Brothers, Bon Jovi, and others. So in the course of my performance I kept the Front of House Sound Engineer quite busy playing with my level because I only gave him a single send from my mixer. The only problem I ran into was the dynamic due to different layers, levels and amounts of each patch. Some songs had me using up to 4 layers. Others were just the Piano by itself. So the question comes up...would a compressor/limiter help me keep my send to the board equal regardless of how much or little I combined ? The one thing I really didn't have time for in my performance was volume tweaks during the show. My setup rule was simple: Get it loud enough in the amp to hear it over the guitars, drums and bass. Your suggestions are greatly appreciated ! :D

[lighthouse]

wow Chris, that`s a hard one, I guess, for personal experience, that it wont work very well cause the times I used a compressor, because of the different sounds I get from my keys I got constant sound cuts (I don`t know how to say it in english) cause the different thresholds that are necesary for each sound.

Hope this works
Juan Pablo

[Tusker]

I share your pain. Thats a pretty complex setup to manage.

I agree with lighthouse. A compressor/limiter will create additional complexity and side effects. If the set list is pretty stable, I would set up different performances/combi's with the splits and layers, then adjust the dynamics. And/or save patches in the user bank with different (often softer) dynamics, so that switches from combi to patch mode don't result in a dive for the volume slider. It may be worth looking into sending sysex packets from a master controller for a rig that big. Onerous, but it will keep your sound guy happy with you ...

BTW, do you have a volume/expression pedal for each major unit? I would get those before installing any outboard processing.

Best,

Jerry

[ChrisMcCoy]

Thanks for the input.
An even bigger challenge is that I only really do fill-in work at this point, so the shows are different The group I played with over 4th of July is a little more complex in the songs they cover, so it was more patching and programming prior to the gig. Luckily the other group I fill in with is a bit simpler and tends more to the piano/organ type of classic rock tunes. I may be able to get by with a single patch and "level the levels" so to speak. I do have a foot volume for one of the 2 midi rack modules, but haven't added the 2nd as I'm running out of room on the floor (2 dampers and 1 volume a bit crowded with wires and all...

Here's some examples of the rig I used last weekend...

http://www.rentedspaceband.com/chriskeys.htm

Cheers !

[Georges]

Compressor:
----------------
The point of a compressor is to increase the density and volume a sound. Taken to comparison, a given sound will appear better sounding to your ear when it is louder (ok, up to some limit :wink:). The problem with increasing or decreasing volume of a sound is usually based around the fact that the frequency range is too huge, by consequence, the sound will sound bad if low volume and not good enough (or too good) if high volume. The compressor reduces the dynamical range (i.e. the frequency range) of a sound and then allows to have an optimum volume. An MP3 is exactly created the same way, and therefore has better results for rock music than classical music (where dynamic range is bigger and more crucial for the music). The disadvantage of a compressor is the loss of dynamics range.

Limiter:
---------
The point of a limiter is to avoid unwanted frequencies. A limiter simply cuts any volume surplus above a given level. Perceive like a filter with a cut-off frequency. The higher the cut-off frequency, the louder the sound. A limiter is a definite choice when wanting to avoid the famous feedback problem on-stage (vocalist's mics or guitars). However, a limiter cuts the frequencies above a given level. If your sound consists mainly of those frequencies, you won't be able to make it louder. On the other hand, a limiter should not be used as a means to set the volume of your sounds.

Probably, a mix of limiter/compressor may help you with your sound setting. Also consider tweaking around with your sounds. Already changing a waveform can change considerably the volume reaction of a sound.

Limiters/compressors are mastering tools and can be very complex (therefore tools for sound engineers), but used with some experimentation they can also be powerful tools for the less knowledgeable. Let yourself give you some advice by a sound engineer and I guess you will find a solution to your problem.

P.S.: high-end synths (e.g. K2600) often have multi-effects devices containing compressor/limiter features. Do not leave those features behind you, make use of them.

[ChrisMcCoy]

Limiter:
---------
The point of a limiter is to avoid unwanted frequencies. A limiter simply cuts any volume surplus above a given level. Perceive like a filter with a cut-off frequency. The higher the cut-off frequency, the louder the sound.

Thanks for the info.
This was actually what I was driving at. With the limiter set properly, I had hoped that a patch consisting of 4 synths would be equally in volume as a single piano patch. However, with the idea that frequency loss is a consideration, I think I'll stick with plan A, let the sound man deal with the single input at the front of house mix. :D
Cheers !
C.

[Over The Edge]

I used to incorporate some nice compressor/limiters in my live
setup but what I experienced was a degredation in sound.
I did not have levels flying around all over the place but I did
some damage by overly compressing dynamic instruments
like my piano and string patches.

I wouldn't recommend their use live for keys.



FL
www.franklucas.net

[lighthouse]

I,ve only got nice compressed sounds in my lead patches. Give them extra sound when you need to kick that solo out

[Tusker]

Oh yeah compressors and limiters generally have their own timbre. And they are fun to use in synths. But not for controlling multi-synth dynamics.

If I expect different sounds to have different attack transients, what attack setting should I use on the compressor? Also my piano is going to go up in volume just cause I took my hand off the B3 chord I was holding. Is that something I want? :roll:

In a single patch (or track), or in a narrow frequency spectrum (like compressing the kick and bass together) they are very cool though.

Chris, are you using combi/performance mode on any of your synths? May I suggest you look into simplifying your rig a bit. I couldn't get the link to work. Hope this helps,

Jerry

[Rexx]

http://www.zzounds.com/media/brand,zzounds/3630_large-3282e260d77c7899448603454cfb3282.jpg
About 2 months ago I bought an Alesis 3630 Dual Compressor/Limiter/Gate. I liked the sound it processed for everything but as a multi instrumentalist I quickly found that each instrument required different tweaking to make them sound musically pleasing.
I then bought another.
Right now one is always setup for my guitar and the other I use for vocals, overall K2500xs mix or mastering tracks. (I want another!)

Essentially you can use a compressor limiter to make weak signals louder, loud parts softer and a gate can control any hiss.
There is no substitute for editting your levels so they fit in the mix but having a good compressor is manditory for keeping signals consistant and they also can protect your speakers from extreme transient signals.

For years I created songs and I was always going nuts "why no matter how hard I try, I can't get a consistant bass guitar or synth bass track without certain notes that just dominated the mix and others that just were a whisper." - Use a compressor = problem solved

I'm enjoying tracking much more now as I'm getting more predictable end results.
:D

---------------Attack---------Release------------Threshold--------Ratio----------Knee
Full track----Fastest Pos._FP or Auto______-5dB/-9dB____2:1/6:1____Soft
Drums-------5ms________10ms or Auto___-15dB________5:1/8:1____Hard
Synth Bass-4ms/10ms___10ms_________-4dB/-8dB_____4:1/8:1____Hard
Real Bass---4ms/10ms___10ms_________-2dB/-10dB____5:1/8:1____Hard
Vocals-------Fast Pos.____Low Pos.or Auto_-3dB/-8dB____4:1/12:1___Soft
Rock Vox----Fast Pos.____0.3s__________?____________4:1/10:1___Hard
Brass--------Fast pos.____FP or Auto_____-10dB/-14dB___2:1/8:1____Hard/soft
E-Guitar-----Fast Pos.____FP or Auto_____-8dB/-15dB____8:1_______Hard/soft
A. Guitar----4ms/10ms___Fast pos. or Auto_?___________5:1/10:1___Hard/soft

[Tusker]

Cool. 8)

Yeah they rule on bass don't they? I've had the same "vanishing bass" issue. Thought my An1X was schizoid on bass before I thought to compress it. I also like to use them on ... um pianos. :wink: So I confess, my pianos sound fake but punchy. :oops:

Multi-band compression (lightly used) is actually good for tightening up levels across a mix, but it won't give you more then about 3-4 dB of dynamic range reduction before it starts to pump audibly and damage the sound. If you are doing loops or dance music, you may want the pumping effect.

Best,

Jerry

[Rexx]

Multiband compression is great for an overall mix and being able to affect lows mids and highs independantly, with my dual compressors I don't have that control and presently I'm not sure I need it. If I did I can just use Waves multiband compression.

[lighthouse]

yeah, some engineers say that you have to be very careful with multiband cause you can easily over use it and screw some frequencies you don`t want to

[Tusker]

Yes, you can screw up things with any kind of over compression IMO. Multi-band reduces the risk of screwing things up, for a given amount of compressor activity, since the impact is localized to a particular freuquency band. I still would not recommend it for Chris situation. Here's a helpful multi-band workshop:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Aug02/articles/multiband.asp?session=a5b6009d96fa790bd6d24d68a0af 4926

Rexx, do you find the Wave product useful? I love their reverbs.

Cheers,

Jerry

[Rexx]

Yes, useful in that it can improve an overall mix and you get good graphics that show you how you're shaping the sound.

[lighthouse]

I love the Waves products, I have the Platinum bundle and it`s great, the rverb is just awesome, I really like the Q10 eq and the C1 comp. too!

Juan Pablo